<p>My D was offered full scholarship for four years at U Pitts nursing school with guaranteed admission to Pitts nursing graduate program ( if she maintains a certain GPA ). It is an excellent opportunity. Then she is offered a four year full scholarship plus four years of room and board by Rutgers ( Pharmacy, engineering, or Arts and Science).She is also admitted by University of Michigan engineering school, with no money. She is good at many science/math subjects but is not sure what she should pursue in the future. One thing is certain, is that she will pursue a graduate/professional degree after four years. I want to save money, of course, but will not force her into anything that she might regret on… But she is not sure where to go too. Thinking about premed, then thinking “what if I change my mind”…" I like math and science, but what if it is too tough to get good grades" …" what else can a nursing degree lead you to, if you don’t enjoy being a nurse? can you go to med school? "…
Now, can someone help me with this question in my mind: which field ( out of engineering, pharmacy, biology, and nursing) provides more flexibility in future career choices such as med school, health administration/management, biomed engineering? She is in general an active kid who works well with people, and probably not enjoy the life of a lab rat…
Thanks.</p>
<p>Remember that medical school is highly selective, and many pre-meds abandon the idea when they get below a 3.5 or so college GPA, and only half of pre-meds who apply to MD medical schools in the US are admitted to any. So a student needs to consider backup paths.</p>
<p>Here are some general pre-med, pre-pharm, and pre-nursing requirements for professional school in those areas:
<a href=“https://career.berkeley.edu/Medical/PrepPrereq.stm”>https://career.berkeley.edu/Medical/PrepPrereq.stm</a>
<a href=“https://career.berkeley.edu/health/PharmPrepCourses.stm”>https://career.berkeley.edu/health/PharmPrepCourses.stm</a>
<a href=“https://career.berkeley.edu/Health/NursPrepCourses.stm”>https://career.berkeley.edu/Health/NursPrepCourses.stm</a></p>
<p>In practice, biology and similar majors have the easiest time fulfilling such requirements (particularly pre-pharm and pre-nursing; the fewer requirements of pre-med can be fit around other majors more easily). However, biology has relatively weak job and career prospects at the bachelor’s degree level.</p>
<p>Biomedical engineering is apparently popular among pre-meds who want to do engineering, but bachelor’s degree level job and career prospects appear not to be as good as for other engineering majors. Among other engineering majors, chemical engineering accommodates pre-med course work better than most other engineering majors.</p>
<p>For PhD study in biomedical engineering, an engineering undergraduate background with some biology is probably the most competitive for admission.</p>
<p>Note that engineering majors at many schools have to take harder math and physics courses than most pre-meds and biology majors, so a student who wants to keep major options open needs to consider that in course selection. At some schools, chemistry or chemical engineering majors may have to take harder chemistry courses than most pre-meds and biology majors.</p>
<p>I majored in something I didn’t even know existed when I got to college, and so did about 50 other people I know. And the career I’ve had for the last 29 years is something I never heard of when I graduated from college. Like dozens of other people I know, and I’m sure you know.</p>
<p>And BTW, I was set on applying to PhD programs my senior year of college- decided to take a year to work, and never looked back. </p>
<p>If this were my kid (and I realize it’s not) I’d be encouraging a major in applied math, which is basically the building block of about 25 different careers. Unless my kid were hankering to be a nurse or a pharmacist, I’d take those off the table. Yes- nurses can do a lot of interesting things down the road- but that’s down the road. Your D still needs to pass boards, do clinical rotations, and actually study nursing… and if the subject doesn’t interest her, it is a very stressful path to take.</p>
<p>There is no such thing as a “premed major”, just some requirements in math and science in order to apply to med school. So virtually any major can keep med school on the table. But as UCB points out- one needs to be a very talented engineering student to maintain the kind of grades to be competitive for med school. </p>
<p>My son followed his aunt’s recommendation to major in applied math. I agree with blossom - it’s versatile and will give him lots of options. He is thinking of becoming an actuary (he needs to find a low-stress career because of his mental illness, and people tell us that’s a good choice). He is finding the course work challenging enough, but not overly. Keeping my fingers crossed for him!</p>
<p>Maine- make sure your son has read up on bio-statistics/informatics before he commits to the actuarial exams. Lots of fantastic opportunities for kids with strong math skills in health care right now, and a tremendous variety in the type of work.</p>
<p>You shouldn’t do a nursing degree if you want to go to med school. You are basically taking a nursing slot out of circulation. Also, when Med school interviewers ask you why you want to go to med school and not be a nurse, you don’t want to say “well, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do”…how will they be confident that you really want to become a doctor?</p>
<p>I would tell her to start in engineering…perhaps Biomed. See how that goes. She could always change to biology if engineering is too hard. But Biomed would be good for pre-med and if she ends up not wanting to go to med school then she will have a major that might be easier to get a job from.</p>
<p>NB: I am an engineer. </p>
<p>Thanks for the tip, blossom! The number and complexity of the actuarial exams do sound a little daunting to me!</p>
<p>Thanks so much for all the help! Discussions and links are all very helpful. I really appreciate it. I read your postings many times and this is what I learned:</p>
<ol>
<li> Med school is a wishful thinking, although possible, it is not something she should set it as her goal at this point. You just have to go to college, take the courses enough to fulfill the premed requirements, and see what happens</li>
<li> Engineering plus bio is more practical because it opens to many career choices, but makes med school choice less possible because it is harder to maintain a high GPA. </li>
<li> Out of the engineering majors, chemical and biomedical engineering courses are closer to premed requirements, but you take harder chem, math courses.</li>
<li> Out of Chemical engineering and biomedical engineering, chemical engineering provides one more choice: in case you will not go to grad school, it is easier to find a job than a bachelor’s degree in biomedical engineering.</li>
<li> Applied math plus bio is another great path, which opens choices to med school, bio stats, engineering , and as you said , 25 other choices.
So, nothing is set. But one thing is probably right, that is: if you are not sure you want to be a pharmacist and nurse, don’t go into those.
Now I have two more questions:</li>
<li> If you did not start as applied math major , how difficult it is to transfer to it later on? How hard is it to maintain a good GPA ( although she has 800 in both math subject level 2 and math part of SAT 1, I am not sure what kind of math brain she has. )? I know it is hard to say, but is it harder or easier than engineering to get good grades? Since she wants to go on after four years, a high GPA would be important.</li>
<li> For engineering, if it is harder to maintain a high GPA, will it make getting accepted by grad school in any field harder too? </li>
</ol>
<p>Pre-med preparation does not just include the pre-med courses; it means doing pre-med extracurriculars and taking the MCAT. You may want to check in to other pre-health aims for such requirements as well.</p>
<p>Applied math usually does not have heavy requirements (though this varies by school), so a student who starts immediately on the math courses should not have trouble completing the major and any pre-health courses within 8 semesters. If the student is able to start in a more advanced course with AP credit (best to check the college’s old final exams before deciding whether to skip a math course that one is allowed to skip), then that increases schedule flexibility. Math courses are less likely to have time consuming labs than engineering courses (though pre-health courses will have labs), but some find mathematical proofs to be intellectually difficult.</p>
<p>Regarding GPA and “grad school”, PhD programs tend to be holistic in admissions, looking for undergraduate research, recommendations, grades in appropriate course work, and sometimes GRE scores. Professional schools often elevate GPA over course work in their evaluations.</p>
<p>Phoenix, although I haven’t seen any statistics on this, I have an anecdotal impression that a relatively high percentage of initial engineering majors end up switching. Sitting on university graduate fellowship committees, I often saw applicants to PhD’s in various fields who switched from engineering – and with pretty mediocre grades their first year or two before they changed their major as undergrads.</p>
<p>I like Blossom’s idea of applied math. Take a look at the curriculum for several such programs. It can lead to a wide variety of careers, and not only in technical fields.</p>
<p>My father was an engineer, and he made a great career in it, mainly in aeronautical engineering. But It’s a very hard major, almost demanding 5 years to complete; and with very tough grading. Unless your D really feels called to a career as an engineer, I don’t think she should go there. My son, who also has superior math skills (but majored in economics in college) never had an interest in engineering but has made a very interesting career by taking advantage of those skills. I would think of applied math (or statistics) as a good foundation for lots of possible careers, especially if combined with a broad exposure to liberal arts, including science, humanities, and social sciences (including geography), and with practical skills in data management (“data science” is a “hot” target).</p>
<p>It would be hard to start out in nursing or elementary education and then switch to applied math, but it’s not hard at most colleges to start out in bio, or chemical engineering, or econ, and then switch to applied math. Have your D check the departmental requirements at any school she’s considering, but in general, a big research U like Michigan or Rutgers will have enormous depth in math, statistics, analysis, comp sci, etc. so getting the courses she needs shouldn’t be a problem. Check the websites to make sure. </p>
<p>Most grad programs understand how difficult engineering is. There won’t be a blanket “pass”- but admissions people understand what an ABET accredited engineering program is all about. I can’t speak to Med school admissions, but business school, law school, other grad programs- even though they are quite formulaic in admissions and do a lot of admitting by the numbers- there will be a skootch of generosity given to an engineer.</p>
<p>But in my mind- you are putting the cart before the horse big time. Your D is obviously a strong student, and she should be figuring out where she can really launch and soar intellectually (given the financial limitations) and not start to worry about what’s going to happen in four years.</p>
<p>If she is typical- she will change her major and/or career aspirations many times over the next couple of years. So picking an undergrad by trying to handicap her eventual grad school plan is sort of fruitless.</p>
<p>If your D has had (or is taking calculus) and did well (i.e. completed all the assignments, understands the material without having to kill herself before every test) and has or is taking a challenging physics class (and ditto doing well with hard work but without having to pull all-nighters constantly) and she really enjoys the material- you’ve got strong evidence that she’s got a solid math brain.</p>
<p>There are a LOT of engineers who don’t work in engineering. Banking- despite the financial crisis; management consulting, consumer products (in supply chain and logistics, for example), insurance, etc. So to my way of thinking, your D ought to show up as a Freshman eager to learn… the rest will unfold.</p>
<p>I know the direct admit/merit offers are tempting. But if your D can’t see herself as a nurse (and pharmacy seems very random here, convince me that it’s not) I can’t see putting herself through the program. And I don’t believe that nursing is a good path to med school anymore (if it ever was).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The switch-out rate from engineering is high overall, but appears to track school selectivity in that the switch-out rate from engineering is low at more selective schools.</p>
<p>The switch-in rate to engineering is low because the sequenced prerequisites make it difficult for someone who has not been tracking the engineering curriculum before switching in to graduate on schedule.</p>
<p><a href=“http://profiles.asee.org/”>http://profiles.asee.org/</a> has school profiles. You can note that the number of students declines at higher class levels at less selective schools much more than at more selective schools:</p>
<p><a href=“http://profiles.asee.org/profiles/6299/screen/20?school_name=California+State+University%2C+Los+Angeles”>http://profiles.asee.org/profiles/6299/screen/20?school_name=California+State+University%2C+Los+Angeles</a>
<a href=“http://profiles.asee.org/profiles/6237/screen/20?school_name=University+of+California%2C+Los+Angeles”>http://profiles.asee.org/profiles/6237/screen/20?school_name=University+of+California%2C+Los+Angeles</a></p>
<p>But also note that the junior class level increases due to incoming transfer students, and the senior class level is increased by fifth or later year students. Also, if the school classifies students by credits completed rather than years/semesters/quarters attended, then students with lots of AP credit may be listed at a higher level (reducing frosh counts and increasing senior counts).</p>
<p>Thank you all so much! Great insights, great advice, links I would never find myself ! I know nothing, and am so glad there are people here spending their time to answer my questions. Really appreciate it!
May I trouble you for three more questions;</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Since at this point, she only has Rutgers and U Mich for engineering, and U Mich is ranked much higher in all engineering fields, if she gets 3.9 in Rutgers and a 3.3 average in Michigan, provide everything else being equal ( research and activities), will a selective school grad program take the Rutgers girl or the Michigan girl?</p></li>
<li><p>Applied math is probably not in engineering school, she has to transfer to school of arts and science or something for it. But I found both engineering schools has this major: Industrial and Operations Engineering/Industrial and Systems Engineering. Is this major mostly applied math? Or is it math/stats/computers?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>3.My son is a bio major in an Ivy school who doesn’t want anything but bio research. He advised his sister not to do engineering. He said engineering courses gets “exponentially harder” from freshman to sophomore, to junior to senior. How much truth is in this “exponentially” harder statement? </p>
<h1>1: Rutgers is a good enough school that such a big difference in GPA (assuming similar course selection) should override any consideration of Rutgers vs. Michigan (especially at professional schools). However, it is not a good assumption that a student will necessarily get that much different a GPA between one school and another.</h1>
<h1>2: Industrial engineering degree programs typically require some more traditional engineering course work, but are primarily focused on applying math and statistics to process and optimization problems. It may be less accommodating of pre-health course work than chemical or biomedical engineering, or applied math or statistics, depending on the school. In many schools, changing from the engineering division to the arts and science division is easier than the other way around, but you need to check each school for whether that is true.</h1>
<h1>3: Has he taken upper division engineering courses? He might not be the one to judge that if he has not.</h1>
<p>No. He has not. He just watched friends losing sleep and working hard to keep up, </p>
<p>Engineering is more work than most majors, but the workload does not increase exponentially. If the student has learned the frosh/soph material well enough to apply it in junior/senior level courses, then workload should be fairly similar.</p>
<p>I think the first easy decision is to rule out Michigan, since no scholarship. </p>
<p>I know it is off topic from my original question " which major provides more flexibility". But let me just confirm this: for undergraduate, if you want to go on after four years, your GPA is more important than the ranking/reputation of the school/program?</p>
<p>Phoenix- I don’t think anyone has said that. If you want to go to med school, GPA is probably more important than anything else. period. Not so for MBA, not so for a PhD program (where the reputation of the college AND the recommendations of the faculty hold huge sway), etc.</p>
<p>You are right. I am worrying too much and too early. Kids will explore and found out what is best for them. But I learned a lot here. Most of the things I heard here are new to me. Thanks. </p>