<p>I recently went to a nail salon (a rare treat!) and the owners/workers were also Vietnamese. They spoke English quite well. I noticed that they keep the TV on CNN all day long. They told me that they improve their English by listening to TV. I think that is true for many others. </p>
<p>On the other hand, my kids improve their Spanish by watching American movies that have dubbed in spanish.</p>
<p>Jlauer:</p>
<p>No TV at the salon I frequent. And I don’t think the customers would like it (I’m guessing); it’s quite busy. It turns out that floor polishers in my area also include lots of Vietnamese as well as Latin American immigrants. Neither group speaks much English (and definitely no opportunity to watch TV).</p>
<p>My grandfather came to the US, armed with only a 6th grade education. In his first 50 years, he never mastered mcuh of the second language of his mother country. Liking the country, he decided to extend his visit despite not understanding a lick of English. He watched TV all day and found the neighborhood kids to be very patient. The fact that he routinely offered them fresh baked cookies and cakes, drinks, or a bit of cash and … cigarettes had lots to do with their acquired patience. </p>
<p>He read every line of the newspaper with a dictionary. After a few months, he got better and after a few years, he refused to speak his mother language. My parents were amazed by the extent of his social circles. There was hardly a week he did not go to a wedding, a graduation party; he never missed any of the local high school football games. Speaking about football, he memorized every team in the NFL, and almost every player stats. He watched every college game he could on Saturdays, and seemingly knew every Division I football team. </p>
<p>When he passed away fifteen years later, there were several dozens families of his neighborhood, including many kids who had enjoyed his largesse in baked or … smoked goods. One of his few regrets was that his dog of 17 years never accepted to follow orders in English. My grandfather said he was too stubborn and too old to learn new tricks. :)</p>
<p>My grandfather came to this country only speaking French (and with only a 3rd grade education). He was a farm laborer. He learned English by listening to the radio. There is no reason that Spanish speaking (and other) laborers today couldn’t do the same instead of listening to Spanish stations all the time. </p>
<p>As a californian who often employed Spanish-only speaking people, I can attest to the fact that they do watch spanish only TV stations at home and listen to Spanish only radio while working and in their cars.</p>
<p>(And, virtually everyone has access to TV – maybe just not during working hours.)</p>
<p>BTW, my French speaking Grandfather, eventually was able to buy some farm land and not only did he learn to speak English perfectly (he also read the newspaper daily), he learned how to speak Spanish because the labors he hired for his farm could only speak Spanish at first (but, he made them learn English.)</p>
<p>Jlauer:</p>
<p>I would never blame someone who works 10 hours a day six days a week for wanting to cook, clean, do laundry, play with his or her children then maybe watch a little TV in his or her own language before hitting the sack for not making the effort to learn English. We’re asking of immigrants a level of effort we don’t care to make ourselves. </p>
<p>My S once interviewed a elderly Chinese woman (via an interpreter). She’d come as a bride in the 1950s and immediately started working in a Chinese laundry. She took great pride in the fact that her children had attended MIT and similar schools. But the children’s education and Americanization came at the price of backbreaking work in near silence for decades. By the time my S interviewed her, she was living comfortably, thanks to these highly educated children. She regretted never having learned English–but she also acknowledged she had never had the chance.</p>
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<p>First off, they could listen to <em>some</em> English radio stations while they work (since they do listen to Spanish stations NON STOP). </p>
<p>And… as far as “asking immigrants a level of effort we dont’ care to make ourselves”… that is just not true. If we moved elsewhere, we’d learn the language. </p>
<p>AND, how many Americans go to work all day and then spend their evenings & weekends going to nite classes & studying to learn something that will better themselves – A LOT DO. So, we are not “asking” for something that we don’t do ourselves.</p>
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<p>Ha! Are you serious? Which “we” are you talking about? You and your husband or “We” as “we, Americans?” Let’s see. How many Americans who have been in Iraq for some time know any Arabic? I know, they’re busy fighting (or keeping the peace), but how is it different from the immigrants being busy trying to make a living? </p>
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<p>SOME do. And a LOT more do not. Let’s not get carried away.</p>
<p>ELL (English Language Learners) is another unfunded federal education mandate that just saps school budgets.</p>
<p>Those in Iraq are learning the language (AND they are not there by choice nor do they plan on living there!)</p>
<p>It’s just impossible to draw any conclusions without making gross over-generalizations. A lot of immigrants would like to learn English, but not everyone is equally equipped for the task. We cannot expect middle-aged individuals who grew up farming rice and did not get much education to “pick up” English as people who grew up in a more modern society. The structure of the mother language is also important, and we need to recognize that, for instance, Laotians, Meins, Khmers or Hmongs do have more difficulty in adapting to English. As a result, it is natural to keep on relying on people who speak the same language. Being surrounded by many people who share an ethnic background is also a negative when it comes to learn something new. People do listen to Spanish radio stations or TV programs because they are … available. My grandfather had little choice since nothing was available in his mother tongue.</p>
<p>jlauer:</p>
<p>Fair enough. I just don’t know of groups of Americans (as opposed to single individuals) who plan to spend the rest of their lives in non-Anglophone countries (there are plenty in Canada or Britain, but that’s not a linguistic stretch). I do know of academics who’ve learned foreign languages; but it was part of their professional activities–not on top of them.</p>
<p>I think jlauer95 brought some valid points. </p>
<p>You are just making excuse for people who have no desire to assimilate into American society and…
…lower the bar for the kind of citizens who will move this country forward. Allowing this to persist and even encourage it in the name of diversity will do more to fracture this country than unite it.</p>
<p>Plenty of excellent posts. Our country is clearly being fractured. </p>
<p>Learning a language as an adult is difficult. I don’t have an “ear” for language & can understand the frustration. However, knowing my limitations, I would never seek residence or employment in a non-English speaking country. And I absolutely would not expect free schooling, healthcare, and legal aid in a country where I was not a citizen.</p>
<p>And I absolutely would not expect free schooling, healthcare, and legal aid in a country where I was not a citizen.</p>
<p>Citizenship is a separate issue from the paying of taxes.</p>
<p>The reason why many immigrants cannot spend the time learning the language is that they are working very hard. They pay taxes; so whatever services they get, they have earned them–just as legal residents. </p>
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<p>The original European immigrants to this country certainly did not know the local languages (namely the languages of the Native Americans). European immigrants to this country in the 19th and 20th centuries did not either–which is why they settled in ethnic enclaves (I remember the Boston of the 1970s: Irish in the South End, Italians in the North End). People forget how long it took for the earlier immigrants to learn English.</p>
<p>What if you are a legal resident, you have paid taxes for years, you speak both languages, perhaps three or four though your native language better than your adopted languages, and your heart is divided between the village where you were born and your new village? You love both equally and perhaps you love being a citizen of the globe more so and maybe not? Where does this person belong? Can they be part of the USA? Should their children get free schooling? etc. I thought that is what paying taxes was for. I hope so. </p>
<p>We live in a very complex world. People are crossing borders everyday, marrying beyond their tiny villages, creating children who understand a bigger planet who carry two passports or more. They come and go from Africa, the US, Europe, Asia. They are economic migrants and they are rich and poor.</p>
<p>It is funny also to consider English speakers afraid of their language being overtaken by some other. English is daily in flux, sorting out and using all the new vocabulary and I love the language for that reason. </p>
<p>I don’t know if this is correct but a Greek friend told me that when the founding fathers were voting on which language to adopt for official business, Greek lost by one vote. Now that might have changed the course of the world…</p>
<p>Tongue in cheek?</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/officialamerican/banenglish/[/url]”>http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/officialamerican/banenglish/</a></p>
<p>“I think Mao unified the country in this aspect, and the engine of modernization you see in China today wouldn’t have taken off if people can’t even talk to each other”</p>
<p>Interestingly, Mao, himself, never learned to speak anything but his native dialect and always had to use an interpreter. Hypocrite. (Mao, I mean)</p>
<p>To Congress: How about health care you idiots? How about the poor? How about education? How about security? How about fixing New Orleans? How about bringing some of our jobs back? How about enforcing our constitutional rights? How about reparing our world image and regaining our allies? How about getting us the hell out of Iraq???</p>
<p>Well, the economy is booming, we haven’t been attacked in almost five years, Ray Nagin (I know, I know) thanked President Bush for keeping his promise to New Orleans, and the unemployment is really low. Our relationship with the allies, who actually ARE allies, is fine. As far as the French and Germans, well, if it wasn’t one thing with them it would be another. The world view of America has been very poor for a long time, so many of us aren’t too worried about that, especially since so many people are still beaking down the proverbial door to get here. Iraq is doing pretty well and I think we’ll see some movement out this year.</p>
<p>And I believe the people of Guangdong are reverting to Cantonese and the people of Shanghai are reverting to Shanghainese. Of course, the written language has not changed. But it was the common written language for the last two millennia. </p>
<p>Now, if I could persuade my nieces and nephews to speak proper French instead of franglais. :(</p>
<p>The economy IS boomin…for the upper middle class and up. Plenty of news of struggling and suffering for middle class and lower. High energy costs, outsourced jobs, high health care costs, etc. are just a few of the many issues that affect the middle class more than the wealthy. Those tax cuts are terrific for the rich too! They have thanked Bush all the way to the bank!</p>
<p>The world view of America has never been lower, according to absolutely everything I read. England continues to be our ally, and of course, Israel, but we are not liked or resepected by most of Europe and a good deal of the rest of the world.</p>
<p>Whether or not Iraq is doing well seems to be a matter of personal opinion, not always based in fact.</p>