<p>“It’s just impossible to draw any conclusions without making gross over-generalizations. A lot of immigrants would like to learn English, but not everyone is equally equipped for the task.”</p>
<p>Xiggi, I think this is an utterly brilliant point. I so respect your posts. I think this is an important issue that is frequently overlooked with regard to the immigration debate. Many of the illegals coming over now are people who are illiterate in their own language and have no history of literacy in their families and communities. The expectations for these people (from whatever country) and their children can’t measure the expectations of people coming from countries in which they were literate, educated and successful for generations. I know I’m going to get smashed for this, but I don’t know what benefit the former group brings to our nation.</p>
<p>There are, of course, many illiterate immigrants on welfare, but many are hard-working.<br>
The Hmong, for instance, were allowed in this country because they had sided with the US during the Vietnam War and thus needed to escape from certain reprisal from the victorious Communists. They came from illiterate backgrounds. A fascinating story of a family on welfare is Anne Fadiman’s The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down, about the culture clash that arose when a daughter was diagnosed with epilepsy.
At the same time, I’ve been reading about Hmong farmers in CA growing produce for fancy restaurants. Farming is an occupation where speaking is not necessary. It is also very hard work.<br>
Finally, I’ve read about Hmong college students and even some Hmong college profs (especially in MN where many Hmong resettled).<br>
The Hmong came in 1975. It takes time for an immigrant community to become fluent in English. It is usually the children who do, not the overworked parents whose capacity to learn a new language has atrophied over the years. When I was in college, I had a number of Chinese-American friends. Their parents did not speak English. But the children certainly did and were able to attend highly selective schools.</p>
<p>“Whether or not Iraq is doing well seems to be a matter of personal opinion, not always based in fact.”</p>
<p>On both sides. We can agree to disagree. I’m not an upper middle class person, by any means. Hubby is a garbage man and I’m an administrator and I think things are just fine, and statistics do bear out the fact that the sky isn’t falling. Which is not to say things are perfect. God knows that’s not the case.</p>
<p>“…lower the bar for the kind of citizens who will move this country forward. Allowing this to persist and even encourage it in the name of diversity will do more to fracture this country than unite it.”</p>
<p>I think it’s about time we got used to the idea that by 2050, the majority of citizens in this country will be non-white. This will happen in the states the U.S. wrested from Mexico earlier. But the country will look very different than it did in 1975. </p>
<p>Frankly, I have met very, very few folks who are particularly worried that their neighbors don’t speak English. But I have met dozens and dozens of folks who are “concerned” that their neighbors are increasingly non-white. I think Harry Reid got it right (for a change.)</p>
<p>“Frankly, I have met very, very few folks who are particularly worried that their neighbors don’t speak English. But I have met dozens and dozens of folks who are “concerned” that their neighbors are increasingly non-white. I think Harry Reid got it right (for a change.)”</p>
<p>I respectfully submit that there is more to the opposition to illegal immigration than racism. I read an interesting article about the bureaucracies that will need to be created in order to manage the employment and other issues pertaining to the non-amnesty. People who don’t necessarily want to pay for Mexico’s ethnic cleansing aren’t all racists.</p>
<p>Very old conservative, old, old conservative Noam Chomsky said the other day that he considers the US the most free nation on this planet. His audience was foreign. You could have dropped a pin. He also believes in the power of real public opinion. It will move the nation forward to embrace the future. As well as the rest of the world.</p>
<p>I respectfully agree that there is MORE to it, but that’s what provides the base. Remember - this forum is NOT about illegal immigration, but ostensibly about “language” (ah-hem.) It’s interesting that you would choose to conflate the two.</p>
<p>“manage the employment and other issues pertaining to the non-amnesty”</p>
<p>It’s just a stupid plan, which will make tens of millions for the Prez’s labor contractor friends. Want to see “guestworker programs”? We already have two such program: one “Made in the U.S.A.” in the Northern Marianas, 12,000 female sex slaves brought in from China and the Philippines (thank you Tom DeLay and Bill Clinton), one “Made FOR the U.S.A.”, the contract workers brought in by U.S. companies to build military bases in our other colony - Iraq - who live in tin shacks in the desert.</p>
<p>I respectfully agree that there is MORE to it, but that’s what provides the base. Remember - this forum is NOT about illegal immigration, but ostensibly about “language” (ah-hem.) It’s interesting that you would choose to conflate the two.</p>
<p>Agree to disagree. I don’t think most Americans are fundamentally racist. I didn’t “conflate” anything. The reason for the official language law IS immigration. Part and parcel of the same issue.</p>
<p>It’s just a stupid plan, which will make tens of millions for the Prez’s labor contractor friends. </p>
<p>"Well, as Attorney General Gonzales says, speaking for the President, the proposal is “symbolic”. So “symbolic” of what? "</p>
<p>Symbolic of the fact the administration is comprised of dithering idiots on this issue? Symbolic of the fact that the entire federal government is out of touch with the American people and realities of life?</p>
<p>And I tried to answer that hard-working though illiterate immigrants benefit the US. They earn enough to pay taxes; their hard work provides goods and services that other, better-educated individuals want.</p>
<p>And, remember the illiterate Mexican ranch hand in Spellbound, who in 20 years had not learned English because cows don’t speak English? Well, his daughter did well enough to qualify for the national-level competition. Just like the Irish and Italians and Poles who came to the US in the 1920s and 1930s. And so unlike the Anglos who came in the 17th century and did not learn Wampanoag or some other local language.</p>
<p>“And I tried to answer that hard-working though illiterate immigrants benefit the US. They earn enough to pay taxes; their hard work provides goods and services that other, better-educated individuals want.”</p>
<p>I understand all those points, but I don’t agree that our nation is better for any of it.</p>
<p>Who makes up “our nation?” The people who get their houses painted, their floors polished, their nails done, the produce and the meat they consume? Or some platonic ideal of “our” that excludes all those folks?</p>
<p>“Who makes up “our nation?” The people who get their houses painted, their floors polished, their nails done, the produce and the meat they consume? Or some platonic ideal of “our” that excludes all those folks?”</p>
<p>It was MY opinion, Marite. I thought I made that clear. My OPINION is that we would be better served to have more legal immigration, particularly the educated, highly-skilled kind. As far as painting houses and polishing nails, one needn’t be illiterate to do those jobs. There are no sectors of employment in which illegal immigrants comprise more than 25%, so native Americans actually DO those jobs. I live in a pretty heavily African American community, and in my area (please note that this is not a general statement) African American teenagers wash dishes, bus tables, care for lawns as after school or summer jobs. African American adults paint houses, own contracting businesses, own lawncare businesses and are the be-all and end-all of the beauty industry. I can tell you that, in my particular community, the African-American people are pretty darned angry and feel that they are the ones who will ultimately pay the price for the influx of so many unskilled workers. That they’re being pushed off the first rung of the prosperity ladder. Again, this is a specific observation to my community. Ultimately, though, intelligent people of good will can disagree about important issues and still be intelligent people of good will.</p>
<p>Those illiterate, illegal immigrants do a good percentage of the unskilled, unpleasant tasks that most Americans take for granted. Your lawn care, your garbage men (well, mine at least), your house cleaners, hotel cleaners, maids, migrant workers, etc. are primarily jobs done by immigrants.</p>
<p>Americans don’t want those jobs. Illegal immigrants do. </p>
<p>You don’t think immigrants add anything to “our nation”? I’d say try living without them.</p>
<p>The other day, there was a post from someone who lives in eastern Washington state, talking about how they cannot find anyone willing to pick cherries, jobs that are paying about $11 an hour.</p>
<p>There is no factual basis to the contention that those are jobs Americans won’t do. And when the Prevailing Wage regulations come into play from the immigration fiasco, those jobs are going to become mighty expensive.</p>
<p>Far be it from me (polyglot, having learned 6 languages–two dead-- and with a Ph.D.) to suggest that illiteracy is a good thing. I am only suggesting that you do not need to be literate to herd cows or paint houses or do nails, or pick cherries. But these jobs DO add to the --“our”–nation’s well-being and prosperity. And in my neighborhood, there aren’t unemployed African-Americans. There aren’t African-Americans, either. But there are plenty of immigrants (I have no idea whether they are legal or illegal) who come in and do the jobs others do not want to do.</p>