Oh, c’mon now. That kid in the front giving the WP sign is NOT giving an OK symbol. Nobody gives the OK symbol with their hand in that position.
Please stop excusing this crap and see it for what it is. Just because some here might be ignorant to what that symbol means does not change it, especially given the context.
Members of the community gathered at the site of the original photo to support inclusion, tolerance, and diversity. Good on 'em!
Starting at min 2:35
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/11/13/nazi-salute-prom-photo-reaction-lemon-sot-ctn-vpx.cnn
I was wondering which student was the photographer’s son. Is he the student giving the white power sign?
Let’s step back a bit here. Even IF they are closeted Nazis, is that a punishable crime? Do we punish Communists in America for holding Marxist beliefs? (Communists murdered hundreds of millions more people than Nazis after all.) Now if they are taking illegal actions, of course they should be punished. A staged photo where they are giving a Nazi salute? Please. The Founders made free speech the FIRST amendment for a very good reason. Let the parents handle it.
I don’t know what to tell you other than I honestly did not know the OK thing was a WP sign, so how the heck can I expect everybody else does, either?
I’m fairly well-read and educated, so I’m willing to give benefit of the doubt that if I don’t know something it’s entirely possible a 16 year old doesn’t either.
If, after investigating, it turns out he’s the one that carved the Nazi insignia into a desk then of course that will be powerful proof that he’s into WP. Until I have a little more info, though, I’m hesitant to condemn or label a 16 year old for something that there’s not universal agreement or knowledge of.
“A difference is that for white nationalism cyberconversion in teens, adults are somewhat aware and tend to minimize, find excuses, ignore context, and generally don’t “wake up and smell the coffee” until it’s too late”
This. Why do I feel that if they were muslim teen males folks here wouldn’t be so understanding/excusing of blatant signals?!
This is NOT some kid flashing the A-okay sign. Consider yourself informed now.
The OK sign the kid is doing is also a thing teenage boys do to each other to " get them to look" at that sign as a “gotcha made you look”. annoying thing. The kids do it all the time. Even my son, and I assure you he is not a white nationalist or anything. They just flash that down low, get you to look and then laugh. Stupid annoying teen age thing.
That being said, the nazi salute is totally egregious and the kids should be punished and forced to do some community service and get some counseling on being decent people.
@doschicos After 9/11, I distinctly remember much hand-wringing about “why can’t the Muslim communities DO SOMETHING about these young men being radicalized?”
Is the “speech” punishable as in a criminal offense? No. It’s speech. Although I detest the speech, I support their right (provided they are not inciting violence - fine line). I also support everyone else’s right to detest the speech and the speech makers. Let them feel pain in the form of public shame, loss of reputation, etc. If some uni decides nott o admit them, so be it. If an employer decides not to give a kid a summer job because of it, great. Actions have consequences.
Very disturbing to learn the photographer was a parent, parents were onsite, etc. Seems like this is only becoming an issue because of social media. I’m hoping every adult on site was cringing in disgust in real time, but I doubt it.
@milee30 - apparently cow’s milk is a symbol of white supremacy too. True story. I bet you didn’t know you were projecting white supremacy every night at dinner.
Hate speech is protected by the 1st Amendment, according to a Supreme Court ruling last year. BTW, Colin Kaepernick lost his football job forever. So “we” (NFL owners and many football fans) punished a football player for the “crime” of protesting police violence against African Amercians.
Anyway, are you arguing that these boys shouldn’t be punished by the school or school district? :-t
Let the parents handle it? :-j Yes, they did such a great job raising them. That’s a big fail.
Well, I don’t recall cow’s milk (the new symbol of Neo Nazi’s according to your post) being given to the Jews who were imprisoned and executed in the Holocaust or cow’s milk being a symbol in 1930’s and 1940’s Nazi Germany.
well, I looked up what both the AntiDefamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center had to say about that white power sign. They both conclude that it could be a lot of things-that it was started as a hoax, became a ■■■■■ symbol, was adopted by some alt-right groups. They conclude it could be anything from all’s well, to teen ■■■■■, to white nationalism, and that one can’t assume anything from just seeing it. So I would think that would be part of the investigation-was it meant as a symbol or an obnoxious teen ■■■■■?
It looks to me like bullying behavior, and for that reason the wider community needs to condemn it. High school students don’t generally successfully argue a free speech right to bully their classmates. At least, not yet.
@milee30: kids either do that double-handed sign as an annoying “look here/tricked you” rib or as a WP signal. I assume your a-ok sign wasn’t double handed and below the waist.
The most egregious part isn’t making that sign though - it’s the sieg heil salute and the pride in the fact they got"the Black kid" to do it. That last part isn’t disputed, it was the caption to the picture when it was posted and it was screen captured. Then it was removed but screen captured last forever.
(Something that sick reminds me of the fraternity that delighted in having its Jewish pledges say antisemitic things.)
In any case, again, context is key. Read the journalist’s report.
Or read my summary if you feel you can trust it:
Journalist came across picture, asked students from the school to explain what was going on in the picture from their point of view.
About a hundred testimonials pour in from students at the school, some who graduated as far back as 2012, some with pictures.
All messages, sent by different people, indicate the same thing.
The boys are customary of ‘white power’ actions. The school considers it’s no big deal.
Pictures include pics posted on social networks, such as boy making WP sign or grinning , shooting behind him so his face as well as other students appear, with the caption " inbound" or " incoming!"
The testimonials also include similar pictures sent to other students (that they brought to school administration) and details of intimidation.
Clearly the whole town is not a white supremacist stronghold (they came together to make counter photos with hearts, for instance) but some white supremacists have been allowed to do whatever they want so that some things seem normal to kids OR kids have been brainwashed and have acted like this with impunity.
Banalisation of evil.
I’m not so sure about the idea of the school punishing the boys. As egregious as I think this conduct was, and as much as I think they deserve to be condemned in the court of public opinion, I support the right of high school boys, or anyone else, to be total jerks. If this were Germany, where affiliation with the Nazi Party is against the law, I would support punishment, but since our laws don’t cover that and the event was an off-campus pre-party to the prom I’m not sure if the school has grounds to suspend the boys or otherwise mete out consequences. I guess it all comes down to the student handbook. If students can receive school punishment for other actions outside school such as underage drinking at after-prom parties I would support school punishment. If not, it seems outside their purview, although I would hope the school instituted an anti-bias education campaign.
I tried to google the Baraboo High code of conduct but couldn’t find anything. I did find a mention of the principal’s 3 day suspension in 2014 after he allowed students to access the school unsupervised after hours for a senior prank. It seems 68 kids showed up and they did a lot of minor damage. Poor judgement.
I think you hit the mail on the head. There can be no “formal” punishment from the school or government body as it is protected speech. If society enacts legal consequences (public shame, loss of reputation, etc.) that is the punishment but any formal punishment would seem to violate the 1st amendment. Keep in mind, as abhorrent as the picture/action may be, no crime was committed here.
@ Myos , do you have a link? I’d like to read it, thanks. (Not doubting you, just want to read it so I understand.)
You’d have to read The Daily Stormer to find out.
In a way it’s reassuring and hopeful to me some believe the students didn’t really mean it and outrage is an overreaction. I pray you are correct, but have posted about living at ground zero for the resurgence of the Klan. Please don’t discount these reports. Please.