The reality is that many young men under 35 are doing fine. My S and the other young men in his chamber group are under 35 (30 and under actually), and they are succeeding in a really, really hard path of classical music. It requires a ton of self discpline, it requires hard work, it requires working as a group, it requires managing your own career and creating an audience and a bunch of other things that supposedly young men are having trouble with (the final member of their group is a young women several years younger).
But I think there are real problems out there and it is something I think people should be looking at. I have a friend whose son (who is 19 now I believe) fits the mould we are talking about and made me wonder why. One thing that is not helpful is trying to blame modern society and implying the past is the solution, whatever the answers are they need to fit into what society is and is becoming (if society in fact is the cause). Claims of kids being ruined by modern things were rampant in the boomer era (remember blaming Dr. Spock?), they were rampant in Gen X, who supposedly were all going to end up in mcjobs or were doomed to being tuned out, now with millenials and Gen Z, same complaints. There were issues in every generation , and the issue we are talking about is one for this generation that doesnāt necessarily define it.
My middle son is 29. You may recall all my stories of how much he struggled in high school - school was certainly not designed for him!
But now heās married and doing well. He lives in Warsaw with his wife and writes for worldatlas . com. He and his wife are doing well - saving money for retirement and a house. I am so impressed with how he has matured and thrived. I wish I could have seen the future 11 years ago, when I was so worried about him. Heās doing the best of our three children!
Iām sorry your S (and you ) had to deal with this. My S was bullied in middle school and it was terrible. And yes, no help from the school.
Unfortunately, the stereotype of āmean girlsā leaves out the fact that a lot of boys are bullied and it is usually by other boys. It is a real problem, but itās very under acknowledged.
I was actually flabbergasted by the lack of action by the school. Especially when they talk like they have zero tolerance for such things.
His problem came from both boys and girls. The worst was a girl that apparently identified as a boy. They were the one that pushed things the farthest, enlisted others to turn against him.
This is so true. Our son was bullied from 4th grade on. The bullies kept moving up with him and are part of the reason he eventually chose to get out of Dodge. His local schools didnāt do anything initially, but I posted his solution about the time I joined CC. Bullies come in all genders, and the pain they inflict goes soul deep.
Our S had some problems in middle school and high school, but he handled it well. When he was about to graduate with MS from Stanford and start his new job, he did mention that it was satisfying to know that the āpeaked in high school crowdā would most likely never achieve the success he was about to embark on.
@ChoatieMom - your Sās solution is very impressive.
Fortunately our S was able to escape the middle school bullies by getting admitted to a magnet school. I was looking into a āPlan Bā as the HS was a direct feed from the MS, and I knew it would likely be disastrous for him to attend that school.
I believe research shows that most bullying is same gender (MD Joe , your Sās case was an exception), but I know many parents whose sons have been bullied , including one who was bullied off of varsity sports team and it seems to be overlooked.
Agree with @MarylandJOE - the schools claim āzero toleranceā but notā¦
I was bullied and hit by boys and mostly ignored by girls (with some bullying from girls too) from age 8 until 14. I still managed to get it together and find my path. I was fortunate to have a supportive family and found some other supports along the way.
I ended up doing careers I loved and still have some friends from my teen years. Yes success is a nice ārevenge.ā
Our DD was bullied by two girls in elementary school. Thankfully she had very good teacher who escalated this to the principal and both girls got transferred from my DD gifted class to the regular class.
I am older and grew up in a time when bullying was considered by many people to be part of growing up and it toughened you and schools basically shared that attitude. If you were different, if you were one of the better students, if you were a music kid or you had long hair (as I did, this was early 70ās as a boy, there was a lot of it. What I am still bitter about (having experienced it personally) is that when the victim fought back, the school that did nothing to prevent it, heaped more of a penalty on the victim (something like that happened to me, I constantly walked away, was in a situation where I couldnāt, I exploded, and the other two kids ended up pretty banged up; only good news is my parents knew me, and they backed the school down, it helped we had several good lawyers in the family. My mom was outraged when the idiot principal told her that the kids who are bullies are really the victimsā¦so that means it is okay for them to bully others?). I was fortunate, kids realized I was pretty tough when pushed, and they backed off. Still wasnāt pleasant at times.
I think a lot of schools give lip service to bullying with zero tolerance and the like, but basically do the same thing they did in my time. I also acknowledge that thanks to social media, it is much, much harder to deal with, so it isnāt entirely the schools. The other side of zero tolerance is where things that shouldnāt be seen as bullying or threatening violence are taken that way, but that is another issue.
Today this guest essay was published. The headline is misleading, as the piece primarily discusses some of the differences between males and females, particularly in terms of the growing up years and how it leads to various outcomes, which I thought this group would find useful: Men and Women Are Politically DIvided. There Is Much More to It Than That (gift link).
ETA: As of today (Dec. 18th) they have now changed the headline to āIf Men Are in Trouble, What Is the Cause?ā I guess I wasnāt the only one who thought the first headline was a poor choice for the essay.
Some of the topics discussed include:
Boys suffering more than girls from āadverse child-rearing conditionsā including the effect of family socioeconomic status
Boys being disproportionately on the tails (i.e. disproportionately showing up at the very top and the very bottom)
Differences in areas of the brain between the sexes
It is interesting that issues of intrinsic differences between males and females (the āmale variability hypothesisā) can now be mentioned even in places like the NYT, because it wasnāt so long ago that people like Larry Summers were being forced to resign for simply voicing this as a possibility.
Iāve been busy but still find the topic of this thread very interesting. Thanks for sharing the link.
I want to mention the ācommentsā at the bottom of the article. They provide more food for thought on the subject.
Iāll also include a link to a recent interview with Scott Galloway. I donāt agree with everything heās been saying on the topic, but I do find his opinions and proposed solutions to be worthy of consideration.
I listen to a lot of Scott Galloway. I donāt even know why he came into my consciousness about a year ago, but I subscribe to his stuff on YouTube. i like what he said in this interview about supporting young men is not a zero-sum game.
Thanks for sharing that Vox piece. I found this portion pretty interesting at explaining the reactions that Iāve seen with respect to this topic:
And the gag reflex you get from progressives and women when you start talking about struggling young men is understandable because no one was talking about it. And then some very unproductive voices entered into that void and this āmanosphereā emerged where it was more what I would refer to as thinly veiled misogynyā¦
The conversations are becoming much more productive because, one, the data continues to get worse, and two, the conversation is now being led or inspired by a demographic that has more credibility, and that is mothers.
That the āunproductiveā misogynistic voices turned people off isnāt so intriguing, but that itās the mothers that are bringing credibility to this topic is. I wonder whether itās because of their nature as females that gives them greater weight (i.e. canāt use the excuse that their gender is losing out compared to previous privileges they had) or whether mothers are quicker/more apt to admit that their child has a problem and are seeking solutions, as compared to some fathers who might either not see the issue (kind of like mess-blindness) or might have some reluctance to seek help (i.e. the trope of men not asking for directions when lost).
I think this is true and many fathers default to āeverything is fine!ā But, I also wonder if many of these troubled young men are without strong fathers in their lives.