Males Under 35: Are they struggling and what can be done about it?

It would hardly be surprising that if some men have a “preference to be in a career with other men (e.g., I want to do things where 50.1% of the others are also men)” and will reject that career if it becomes “labeled as feminine” then they will also resist making that career more welcoming to women.

Anyone stop to think that “back to the office” mandates are at least in part a way of “masculinizing” the workplace?

But it seems there’s an irresolvable problem: if all careers are opened up to women and become “femininized” then where do the men “flee” to? Or should we be content with high prestige white collar jobs being opened up to women, while traditionally male lower status careers (e.g. the trades, law enforcement and military) remain male dominated? Even if that’s the case, then it would mean more high status women will only have low status men to choose from as partners (or will remain unmarried).

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So on one hand young men are avoiding college because there are too many women in colleges…and on the other hand young men are complaining about being involuntarily celibate.

I would call such a pattern “toxic masculinity” except I don’t want to be accused of misandry. Yes, on second thought I’m sure the problem is due to something feminists are doing wrong.

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Maybe I’m missing something. Isn’t the ratio of men to women chosen/controlled by the college/ university? I’m sure there are quite a few men who would be more than happy to attend universities with a male/female ratio of 40/60. Colleges understand yield. Is the claim that colleges can not achieve more than 40% men in a class?

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It can only be controlled by the most selective colleges (with a surfeit of applicants and a willingness to turn down a higher proportion of women than men) and then only in states which permit gender discrimination in admissions (e.g. not California). Overall, if 60% of college applicants are women, then enrollment at less selective colleges is likely to be >60% women. That may prompt a further downwards spiral in overall male college attendance as more marginally qualified men drop out or become unwilling to attend in the first place.

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Nope. It’s controlled by the number of people who apply, are qualified for acceptance, and matriculate. Only in the very few top schools … and there are far more schools than these out in the wild … is the school actually managing this. For most schools, qualified students are accepted, some choose to attend, and it has increasingly been shaking out to be very female dominated.

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Wait, what about “holistic” admissions? Schools are attempting to create more representative classes, right? Shouldn’t schools strive for 50.4% women and 49.6% men?

Are we suddenly accepting “male flight” as settled science because a feminist substack found a study about veterinary school that supports a narrative?

This was an interesting point:

“Of the 16 articles I read on men not going to college, only two mentioned masculinity or male flight.”

Perhaps 14, or all 16, don’t think “male flight” even warrants discussion.

What schools with holistic admissions try to do and what they are ultimately able to do is dictated by whether or not the applicants say yes.

But MOST schools … the vast majority, which will be what you see reflected in trends … admit based on whether or not the students are qualified. And if they do attempt to have a student population that is roughly half and half, male and female, they can only achieve that if the applicants they admit say yes. Or in some cases, if the applicant pool doesn’t skew one sided (like if it is actually true that guys are avoiding a school or schools in general).

Not everything is political or some sort of conspiracy to be whatever conspiracy theorists think things are trying to be.

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Who said anything about a conspiracy theory?

UCLA got over 173,000 applications last year. Their female/male ratio is 60.5%/38.5%. Are you saying admissions is so incompetent that they couldn’t enroll a 54/46 class? Honestly, I’d think they could build a 45/55 class with that many applicants.

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The problem colleges run into is that the female applicant pool is more highly qualified than the male pool. UCLA could build a 45/55 class but only by denying more qualified women and accepting less qualified men. So affirmative action for men? Who didn’t bother to do the work in high school? Sure. Why not. Selective schools that do take gender into account to try to get 50/50 have already said that their standards for men are lower than for women.

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Discrimination based on gender is illegal for California public universities. But who is admitted very much depends on your definition of “qualified”. The ratio of women to men at UCLA has gone up significantly (from ~55/45 to ~60/40) since the UCs went test blind. Ignoring test scores (which men do relatively better in) and giving more weight to GPA and ECs is effectively raising the admission bar for men and lowering it for women.

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I can’t speak yo UCLA’s specific situation. I’m guessing none of us can. Perhaps you might ask the enrollment director at UCLA. They would be able to answer your question from a place of actual understanding.

What’s there to understand? It’s just math. It is possible to build an incoming class of 8,000 where 4,000 males and 4,000 females are academically similar when choosing from 170,000+.

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The UCs political decision to ignore test scores was a travesty, given that the UC Academic Senate found it to be highly predictive of student performance in college.

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My dad, a professor for over 50 years, said the same - all the studies show that test results are very predicative of success in college.

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My impression is that the Ivies typically hit almost exactly 50/50 because they can.

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I’m not going to worry here about college admissions policies but I am going to think about the more general problem of why males might be struggling. I think the evidence is that they are struggling.

People, like the author of the male flight article, tend to look for a single cause, but few if any of the problems in the world, including the struggle of males, have a single, simple cause.

With respect to male employment and attitudes, global economic trends (globalization and information technology) have deemphasized traditionally high-paying typically male jobs (in the US, though some of them have moved elsewhere). Going forward however, as AI gobbles up white collar jobs, more hands-on jobs that AI can’t do (electricians and plumbers, nurses and probably surgeons, etc.) will be favored over typical white collar jobs.

Over the years, the pendulum of attitudes swings. The unconscionable mistreatment of blacks in the US (slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, underfunding of education, segregation, etc.) led to, among other things, affirmative action to partially respond to our country’s extraordinary treatment of blacks. Later, responding to significant discrimination against women, affirmative action expanded to include women.

While discrimination persists in the US (part of the election results for both Hilary and Kamala reflect voter discomfort with a female or a black female as president) and Europe, it is somewhat counterbalanced by changes in legislation, regulation, attitudes and bureaucracy.

Over time, the US saw a shift from affirmative action to a much broader version of DEI. Two or three notable aspects to the shift. First, we expanded government protected classes from blacks and women to Hispanics, Pacific Islanders and other groups. Second, the E of equity largely shifted from equality of opportunity to mean equality of outcome. Third, our bureaucracies shifted to an intersectional view of the world in which the world was divided between oppressors and oppressed.

In this version of DEI, men and especially white men were implicitly and explicitly vilified not just for their sins (on the hiking trail and beyond) but for the sins of the past. In this phase, male voices were automatically suspect/disqualified. I have told this story before but when ShawSon did orientation week at college, there was one or maybe two days devoted to DEI education, which mostly focused on female consent as it was in precursor to the MeToo era. ShawWife and I both told him to say nothing because as a white male anything he said could and would stain his reputation on campus. Indeed, a very muscular, handsome black man whose actual name was Adonis expressed disbelief. ShawSon tried without success to get him to be quiet. Adonis asked if they really meant that when a woman climbs into his bed uninvited (apparently a not uncommon occurrence in his case), he really needed to ask her consent. He kept talking and apparently this affected his reputation on campus for his four years there. At that time, even legitimate questions about the school’s policies (e.g., why if both participants are drunk and by definition can’t give consent, why the male and not the female would be considered to have committed sexual assault if they have drunken sex) would have been deemed to be politically incorrect. In last year’s DEI world, a white male and especially a white Jewish male could feel that he was implicitly assumed to be evil until proven otherwise. (I recently attended an event that included a session on Redefining Masculinity. It was perhaps telling that all of the panelists were women).

In this context, my perception is that masculinity of every kind has been devalued/denigrated. I think it would have been easy for a boy in school to feel like the world was against him, even when there was/is significant implicit discrimination that advantages males.

The defenestration of Claudine Gay may represent the apogee of the pendulum swing. Companies have been quickly dismantling their DEI apparatuses. Universities will respond but more slowly. As an example, I noticed that Harvard’s current president gave a talk in which he mentioned Diversity and Inclusion but pointedly not Equity. But, the schools have large entrenched DEI bureaucracies with strong support from professors and students. Public schools may not respond very slowly if at all as the entrenched DEI bureaucracy has civil servant status.

The return swing of the pendulum will leave boys feeling less denigrated. That should help. (As a side note, I hope we throw out the bathwater – some of the intersectional elements of DEI and the translation of equity into equality of outcome – without throwing out the baby – protecting against discrimination against blacks, women, native Americans and others as well as developing ways to identify talented but underprepared candidates.) Moreover, the relative advantage of higher end tech jobs and the trades (both typically more male) conferred by the advance of AI may also arrest the decline. But, I fear that the hollowing out of white collar jobs more generally will be very bad for the politics of the country.

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A reminder that this is not the Politics Forum. Thank you for your understanding.

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Well if ShawSon were to have said something stupid then his reputation should have a stain on it. Let’s face it rape on college campuses was and is still a problem, so I don’t see an issue with an administration taking some time to cover it.

Btw, there are still sundown towns in this country so there still are issues.

But basically the reasons males are struggling these days is because females don’t have to put up with their BS. A woman has rights and can earn money therefore their male partner can’t control them like males did in the past.

Many males don’t want to be a true partner with their significant other. Females still overwhelmingly carry the mental load in a relationship. I still remember a mom telling me a story of how her husband took their daughter to the wrong school for drop-off. This guy was an executive doing well, but didn’t know the school his kid went to.

My advice to women going through a divorce and their husband is complaining about child support amount to give up custody to her children to her husband and pay him child support. Let him have 100% custody. Many men could last 3 weeks being a single dad with active kids. He will beg the mom to take some of the custody off his hands.

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I just think this is way too much of a simplification. I know many great young men who are struggling mentally and emotionally. In our area over the last five years we have had such a high number of young men take their own lives.

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