Serious question: do you have any sons?
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Or a spouse? I think if significant percentage of a group of people are struggling we donât just say âmen badâ and move on.
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Nope. I just was one for 52 years. Still am one if you count my in-laws.
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Yep. I have a spouse of 29 years married.
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Well, this strong feminist believes you are shortchanging your entire sex then!
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I never said all I just said many.
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I agree that rape on campus was and is a problem and did not have a problem devoting time to it. My contention was that nothing a male said in that context could help and could only hurt him. There was/is no room for a male voice to question any bit of the orthodoxy. Again, I believe that the Claudine Gay debacle in Congress and then beyond (she kept having to issue clarifications and retractions to statements sheâd made) highlighted the fundamental flaws/hypocrisy of DEI programs as implemented by universities (and other institutions). Pendulums swing too far and then they swing back. I believe the pendulum will swing back, hopefully not too far, and males will begin to have a voice.
Wow. The transition from traditional gender roles to more egalitarian ones isnât always smooth, but there is definitely more to it than that.
That is exactly the advice I have given to women negotiating their divorce settlements with husbands feigning interest in custody to reduce alimony/child support.
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I would say you were getting only one side of the story of what was going on in the orientation that your son was attending. Letâs face it any 18 yo male or female are going to complain to their parent when confronted with something they might not be even able to truly comprehend because their frontal lobe isnât even fully developed yet.
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This tells the story.
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In terms of college attendance, the fact that we see more of a 60/40 women to men ratio might not be because fewer men are going to college, just that fewer men relative to women are going to college. The American Institute for Boys and Men says the following:
âIn 2022, 57% of male high school graduates enrolled in college, compared to 66% of their female counterparts. While the percent of women immediately in college has seen a steady increase, only recently stabilizing, the percent of men enrolling in college has been more stagnant. The rate of immediate college enrollment for men is the same in 2022 as it was in 1964.â [emphasis is mine]
We will never reach 100% college attendance from men or women, so there will be a natural limit to the number of people who want to attend college (right after HS or at any point in their lives). Maybe the number for women will also start to level off, but it might settle in at a higher number than for men on both an absolute and relative basis.
Richard Reeves in âOf Boys and Menâ discusses the myriad reasons that men are lagging behind women, starting with kindergarten readiness, school environment and maturity (among other factors). Further, studies have shown that boys are more sensitive to their environment than girls are, meaning that a challenging home life or a bad neighborhood might have a greater (negative) impact on a son than a daughter of the same family.
To me, the question of fairness or even the realities of male opportunity are less important than the perception that many men clearly have that they are increasingly on the margins and are struggling to keep up. As women become more qualified, competitive and independent, perhaps itâs inevitable that (young) men would begin to question their value and their role.
Even though Iâm a strong feminist and applaud the many advances made by women and girls, I also see how at times pro-woman messaging might appear to come at the expense of boys, as if it were a zero sum game of âwho is betterâ. Our society wonât benefit from a large percentage of men feeling ineffective and useless, so itâs an important issue, but hard to discuss without suggesting or implying that women are âat faultâ or should somehow âgo backwardsâ (which, I hope to make clear is not at all my position).
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In some ways, Iâve been watching the congestion pricing story in NYC the same way Iâm watching this discussion.
Iâve seen lots of commentary with people angry that if they want to drive to see their children/parents/friends in NYC, they are now hit with a congestion pricing charge to do so. In many cases, they are talking about distances of 1-2 miles of driving. Which means, they could choose to take a bus, a subway train or walk. OrâŠthey can choose to drive and pay the added congestion price (money which will go to making public transportation more plentiful and/or cheaper for those using public options).
One can be angry that one is paying congestion pricing (which didnât always exist) and think something has been taken awayâŠor one can see that choosing to drive a car in a busy city has costs that might be unseen by each individual driver and that the congestion pricing is part of being a community member in concert with others in the community and see paying the congestion price as part and parcel to having a car to drive and choosing to use it to go 1-2 miles in a busy city while also supporting the public transportation that other use to make the city less congested with vehicles making travel easier for everyone involved.
Framing change as loss or as a way for communities to work together as they get more information is a choice.
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Iâm sure I was only getting one side of the story, @gpo613. Iâm also confident that there was no room for discussion (right and wrong were clearly established at the outset of the meeting) or even clarifying questions from males.
Similarly, as I mentioned, I was amused to see a panel discussion on redefining masculinity that had only female panelists. The chair of the panel was thinking about it from the perspective of a mother of boys, I think. But, it would be difficult to imagine a panel on redefining femininity or womenâs roles that had a male panelist and certainly one with only male panelists.
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My S is under 35, and he thinks that one of the worst things to come along is the onslaught of online and sports betting. None of his friends are into that, but he knows so many young men his age who are obsessed with it. Itâs sucking up their time and money, and he finds that many of them blame everyone but themselves for the fact that they arenât getting ahead in life. He doesnât know any young women who gamble, although I am sure there are some. But heâs pretty adamant that the gambling guys have only themselves, not society, to blame. He believes that itâs harder to get ahead than it used to be, but that there are people complaining that theyâre being held back when they are holding themselves back.
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I wonder if online and sports gambling is in a similar category as other online gamingâis it the problem or the symptom? Itâs kind of like addiction of any other sort (alcohol, opioids, etc.) and becomes a chicken-and-egg problem. Did a person turn to gambling (or drugs or obsessive gaming) because of depression and/or a lack of vision for their future? Or did they have a vision and then go on a downward spiral due to their addiction? I see this as one of the manifestations of âmale malaiseâ but not necessarily the cause of it.
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In my social circle, I certainly do hear a number of mothers talking about the challenges of raising sons in todayâs world. I donât hear any fathers expressing the same concerns. Maybe they are not interested or not concerned? Or maybe since they consider their wives the primary parents, itâs just not on their radars? Or maybe they are just as involved in thinking about and trying to redefine masculinity as the mothers, they just donât talk about it? Who knows.
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As a father of 2 young men, I could care less about someone elseâs redefinition of masculinity. My boys are who they are. Like them, donât like them, I donât particularly care. They both seem to be doing fine and both are under 35.
I work with a lot of men. Iâve never had the topic of defining masculinity come up.
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I have not been looking for that discussion, but here are a few cites with males thinking about masculinity:
https://www.amazon.com/Redefining-Masculinity-Visions-New-Being/dp/1954493045
These may be from a progressive orientation. However there were also menâs approaches on the right, like Josh Hawleyâs book called Manhood: The Masculine Virtues America Needs, which currently ranks #62 in Amazonâs Menâs Christian Living category, and what they call the manosphere (Andrew Tate et al.).
Like @fiftyfifty1, I too have heard more from women (particularly mothers) about the challenges that many young males are having, but less so from the fathers. Of course, there are cases where both parents are in denial, or indicate that itâs a case of their child wanting a different lifestyle (though still what most would call unlaunched).
Still, if I was going to organize a panel on males in this age range, Iâd do my darndest to find some males for the panel.
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This relates to both men and women, but Chris Arnade wrote a new, depressing forward to his excellent book Dignity, which focuses on âback rowâ despair.
https://www.amazon.com/Dignity-Seeking-Respect-Back-America/dp/0525534733
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Interesting piece on the game theory of marriage and how changes in the bargain affect menâs willingness to work hard/settle down/provide for a family:
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