That’s a good question.
3 Likes
I know one.
One is my BIL. He was sexually abused by a member of their Catholic church as a preteen. Never sent to therapy. He was sent to NYC for acting school on his parents’ dime. There, he had to work hard and praise was sparse from strangers, so while he was able to do hard things up until that point, he slowly declined. Dropped out. Worked part time, didn’t like that, and moved back home. Didn’t work. Then moved to the east coast with family, worked part time in a new career, didn’t like that because it was not fun and little money. Fast forward 10 years later, he is diagnosed with anxiety and PTSD and stopped working completely over the past 10-12 years by my count. He’s now 40, smokes a lot of weed, has never worked a full time job, does not qualify for disability, does not have a spouse or offspring (thank goodness for that), and will not qualify for SS because no credits. DH assumes his parents’ estate will go to BIL, who will burn through it quickly.
Honestly, I’m shocked that his parents do not throw the money at him now–while he can still get a career and skills to live independently (he lives with another family member). As a parent, I could never forgive myself for not trying everything. His parents both have college degrees and my FIL worked his ass off his whole life. I cannot understand why they are in denial about the fact that most likely, BIL will be very, very vulnerable for decades when he will really be unable to work and support himself. It is almost like they are still in denial.
10 Likes
@GKUnion I wonder if any studies have addressed this question. I’m sure there are some under 35 males struggling at all income levels, but I think there is probably a higher percentage in lower income families than high SES, since fewer lower income students are graduating from college or 2 year vocational programs at community colleges, or completing apprenticeships in the trades. I think the majority of the disillusioned males are either those who see no “light at the end of the tunnel” or who have significant mental health and/or substance abuse issues.
2 Likes
Thanks for sharing. I hope your BIL can turn things around.
1 Like
I think the lower SES males that are struggling might be easier to identify because they have no safety net, and could be more likely to publicly run afoul of societal norms, and the law. I also feel like the families of these lower SES males are significantly less likely to allow their sons to remain in their houses.
The issue with high SES males is their likely reluctance to enter into the trades at all. At least the lower SES males can work in that direction.
5 Likes
100%
2 Likes
Three high SES families I know have sons who are in the trades. They are aged 21, 24 and 27 - all three still live at home.
I for one see nothing wrong with adult children living at home if they are working, saving, engaged and respectful.
8 Likes
D’s BIL is a cardiologist who will live at home forever unless he marries (which is unlikely). It’s cultural and signifies nothing other than that.
4 Likes
What careers are the parents involved with?
All three of the fathers are second level management for a large communications company. The mothers work in teaching, health insurance real estate ( not sure what that is exactly) and sales.
1 Like
One instance of a struggling male I know is in a high SES family. One parent graduated from college and is in high-level management at an organization with thousands of employees. The other parent did not attend college but worked at an organization that believed in promoting from within and has been at an executive level position for many, many years. The son went to community college but dropped out. His family has suggested various trades, the military, etc. as they are well aware that college is not a requirement for a successful life. Some years he had some employment (usually part-time service industry positions) and other years he had none. He is still living at home and the extent of his contributions to the household is doing the cleaning of his room. I think he now has a FT position and has started to talk about trying to save up money to get a vehicle, so I’m hopeful that he has turned a corner, but it’s too early for me to say definitively. But in terms of what was historically considered appropriate in my family (either school or working full-time, or a combination thereof, from high school graduation on), this individual is almost a decade behind.
1 Like
This breaks my heart. So very sorry this happened and that his family never sought the help he needed.
5 Likes
First of all, thank you @NJSue for your excellent post.
I couldn’t help but notice though the positive reaction to your post (14 likes so far), even though it included the comment:
In contrast, when a man (@Twoin18) provided the original link to the essay, the reactions from posters (many of whom I have respected for years) were:
(Although to be fair @fiftyfifty1 admitted that was hyperbole)
In other words, it seemed to matter more who posted the information (a man vs a self-identified feminist), rather than the information itself.
3 Likes
Arnade’s essay is nothing like those characterizations of it. I do think that some people reflexively dismiss the concerns of advocates for boys and young men because they are old enough to have experienced the dismissals of their own gender-based concerns and do not have sympathy. I remember being told by a guidance counselor when I was in public junior high school in Minnesota in the late 70s that I would make a good secretary because I scored well on a test for clerical speed and accuracy. I also scored in the 99th percentile on the Iowa tests (remember those?) but the same guidance counselor never suggested that I might go to medical school instead of secretarial school. So I understand the impulse to minimize or reject the gender-based concerns of men and boys. I also think that two wrongs do not make a right.
There is an unfortunate “team man” or “team woman” aspect to many of these debates and it is not helpful.
12 Likes
I think it should be noted, however, that the 14 likes that @NJSue’s post has received so far have not come from the people who “liked” the reactions to the article posted by @Twoin18 that you quoted. And the people who “liked” the posts you quoted that were in opposition to Arnade’s posts have not “liked” the post by @NJSue.
Thus, I think it’s less about the gender of who is saying something, and more that there is a diversity of perspectives on the topic in this thread.
2 Likes
Or some people are terrible at and dislike debate, but agree with the eloquence of @NJSue
This is also a motto I try to live by…
1 Like
Agree, but one key difference is that there has been zero push back on @NJSue’s post by anyone, even though it made some of the same points that @Twoin18 has done in this thread.
1 Like
True. I will say that I suspect that part of it does come down to communication style. Outside of this thread, there are times that I might post some very similar content as another poster, but the reactions to our posts can be quite dissimilar. I don’t know whether it’s about the assertiveness of the statements (i.e. you should do this vs. you may want to consider this), how statements are conveyed (i.e. this is how it is vs. this is what I’ve seen/experienced), or maybe that people have developed feelings about us from other threads/posts that color their interpretation of any statements we make, even if comments in a particular context are conveyed in a more pleasing manner.
That said, I do think that we all have our implicit biases and that sometimes hearing something from someone “of a type” (whether that’s gender, race, class, education level, religion, whatever) that has positive or negative affiliations for us can then color our reactions to their statements.
5 Likes
And sometimes the like is for a specific thing said within the post, rather than the post itself.
10 Likes
Are we really measuring sexism in the thread by the amount of “pushback” on NJSue’s post, and counting likes? If so, who knew statistical studies were so easy? 
If it is a scientific study, then let me say, for the record, that while I appreciate the tone and the perspective, I don’t agree with at least some of @NJSue’s post, or at least I think it would take some fleshing out before I knew if I agree or disagree. Rather than responding (and risking the wrath of those who have made it quite clear that my opinions are not welcome in this thread) I thought I’d wait and see where the conversation takes us and whether some of the thoughts get explored without my involvement.
I didnt realize that, by listening, I was casting a vote or participating in a study, and I never dreamed her contribution would take us to accusations that this very thread is sexist against men, and that some of the men in this thread were being discriminated against just because some people disagreed with them but haven’t commented on @NJSue’s post. 
Also, since the comparison has been offered, then lets please also note that while there may be some crossover between @NJSue’s and @Twoin18’s posts, there is also quite a lot room between them in some areas.
For example, I don’t read @NJSue’s posts as being completely dismissive of the perspectives of women and mothers on the issue of what is going on with young males. I do wonder, though, whether @Twoin18 views her contribution here in the same light as he views the children’s author (and mother) he belittles above:
I am also left wondering, what’s the standard here for what women can contribute when it comes to understanding boys and young men?
- Are men and women so genetically different that women, even the mothers who raise boys, can’t possibly understand and ought not even contribute?
- Are women’s perspectives only welcomed and valued when they are agreeing with a man?
- On an individual rather than statistical basis, are thoughts and feelings really so easily segregated into “girl” thoughts and feelings and “boy” thoughts and feelings?
- What is more harmful . . . teaching boys that supposedly “girl” thoughts/feelings are okay to have and explore, or teaching boys that only supposedly “boys” thoughts/feelings are appropriate, and that “girl” thoughts/feelings are bad?
5 Likes