Males Under 35: Are they struggling and what can be done about it?

The real question though, is whether most of society is ready to accept women to be the primary breadwinner and men to be a SAHD. I don’t think the opinions of CC members is very representative here.

I tried finding some polling data, and I found one, but it’s 12 years old at this point. And at least back then, supporting a spouse being SAHP was a deal breaker for 3x as many women as it was for men.

There’s just one problem – women are much less apt to support men who seek to be stay-at-home fathers.

While 91% of men we surveyed said they would support their wives’ decision to stay-at-home, that number dropped precipitously to 70% of women answering the same. In fact, more than one-quarter of women (26%) said they flat-out refuse to even entertain the notion of working full-time while supporting a husband who stays home and takes care of the kids and house. That’s compared to just 8% of men who said they would refuse the request of their spouse to stay at home.

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It is fascinating (and not a little disquieting) that in response to any suggestion that in general boys prefer “structure” and “rules”, some will immediately leap to invoke the specter of religious “fundamentalism” and imply that the next stop is The Handmaid’s Tale. That happens even when articles (such as those by Arnade and Henderson) make no mention of religion and AFAIK the authors aren’t religious themselves.

Religion is one aspect of culture that gave structure to peoples’ lives in the past and set rules to live by. There’s a very valid question of what rules and expectations should apply today, especially as a lack of clarity is one of the factors making some young men’s lives more difficult.

That doesn’t require one to be a fundamentalist or even religious at all. But it does require society to have some level of consensus and rules on what is acceptable and desirable and what is not. If everything is just based on one’s personal morality, then game theory tells us that there’s an obvious incentive to defect, whether you are a billionaire or a gang member.

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Is the article you posted the article you are referring to? I’m going to let this all go, but I just honestly don’t understand how the article you posted has anything to do with what you are saying.

Aha! Thank you! The author of your article bases his arguments on a book (Promises I Can Keep) that I tried but failed to find just a couple days ago for another thread!

The central claim of the book (by two sociologists, Kathryn Edin and Maria Kefalas) was that they had interviewed young poor women from Philadelphia, and had come to the conclusion was that no matter how much they might claim their pregnancies were “accidents” that these women were getting pregnant on purpose. After all, taking a birth control pill was so easy that any pregnancies must be intentional. Therefore it was pointless to try to develop more user-friendly contraception.

And I remember reading the book when it came out (2005) and being livid that the authors were so out of touch. That the current contraception was NOT easy to use, especially for women with low literacy. That we were in desperate need of methods that were truly user-friendly. And thank goodness the researchers listened to us doctors and developed methods such as Nexplanon and Mirena, which caused the pregnancy rate in these young and impoverished populations to plummet. (And yes, because this has already been asked on the other thread, it’s the LARCs that get the credit for the vast majority of the drop, not other factors.)

Anyway, I thought these authors were arrogant and out-of-touch then and I still think so now. (And no, having this book repackaged by a man didn’t change my opinion.)

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You described the Henderson article as “fundamentalist”. And another poster invoked “Fundamentalist Christian authors” in response to the Arnade article.

I don’t understand how your comment has anything to do with the article since it never mentions religion.

You’ve cited parts of the book about women and contraceptives that appear nowhere in the article I quoted, apparently so you can ignore the article itself, which is by a male author (aged 18-35) talking about young men like himself. As I said earlier

And the other source for the article is more drivel by race-pseudoscientist Charles Murray, where he tries to prove he’s not just a racist by attacking poor white people as inherently dumb and lazy, too. It is the same old determinist garbage.

Sounds like the book you describe is right along the same lines.

:roll_eyes:

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Excellent post, @NJSue.

I thought we had gone well beyond the notion that “all sex differences are arbitrary and culturally imposed.” The notion that kids were a tabula rasa on which we enlightened adults would write the appropriate politically and morally correct instructions was the conceit of the educated class in the 80s and 90s, I think.

When we had kids, it became clear that much of their personalities was hard-wired. ShawSon was an observer and would wait to jump into activities, and would be happy to have help. ShawD would jump right in but was insistent that “I do it myself.” From the earliest age, whenever ShawSon saw a stick, he would pick it up and brandish it as a weapon. When he went to (an excellent) pre-school (sponsored by Radcliffe with all of the political correctness that could possibly be mustered), all but one of the boys seemed imprinted on a single instrument of power (for some boys trucks and/or construction equipment, for others dinosaurs, in my son’s case, medieval weaponry, for another cars). These kids had encyclopedia knowledge of their chosen instrument. The boy who did not was raised by a lesbian couple and he would rummage in the costume chest and wear dresses. We never saw a single girl who seemed so singularly focused on an instrument of power in either pre-school. Based upon our experiences and observations, ShawWife and I felt we really had to throw out the tabula rasa hypothesis.

Much of the work on sociobiology, which morphed into behavioral ecology and evolutionary psychology, seemed pretty sound to me (though there was a lot of trashy pop sociobiology). I was a graduate fellow in a small organization that brought together some pretty extraordinary faculty members at Harvard and MIT. The first year I was a fellow, we had the rare opportunity to listen to sociobiology proponents Robert Trivers and E.O. Wilson and opponents Stephen Jay Gould and Dick Lewontin (and others). The essay by Stephen Pinker posted by @Twoin18 looks at the work by Synons that highlights evolution-based testable predictions differences between males and females that are consistent with the data. I did not know his work (this is not my field) but, from Pinker’s description, it seems persuasive.

None of this implies that women can’t be great scientists or should be home cooking. But the body of work does suggest that we throw out the hypotheses that all differences between males and females are due to social construction.

With respect to another one of your points, I was on the phone today with a very progressive distinguished Canadian conservationist. Very impressive guy – I’m surprised he hasn’t been awarded a McArthur fellowship. He and his wife (also on the progressive end of the spectrum) were noting that his son reacted to the “institutional and casual misandry if his schools and university” by adopting a strong right-wing political philosophy. In an NPR interview, Senator Fetterman said that the Democratic party had adopted a series of positions that made it hard for white males and males generally to vote Democratic. I think he was talking about the same thing.

Finally, @GKUnion, a good question on which I have small sample information. ShawWife regularly volunteers me to provide career counseling to the children of friends, whom she calls the “failure to launch” crew. Due to our location, most are upper middle class with some closer to middle. Most of the failure to launch crew are male (maybe all as I can’t remember any females at the moment). In other contexts, I have definitely counseled women – a number who were trying to figure out how to surmount the sexism in the tech industry and others in a group of highly accomplished young adult children of the famous, semi-famous and hangers on to them. But, none of those women were failures to launch. As @GKUnion noted, the safety net provided by the higher SES parents can mask the failure to launch.

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This is not an accurate summary of what anyone has suggested, except as a red herring.

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I’ll see your “casual misandry” and raise you systemic sexism.

My experience has been that boys and men don’t want to engage in “merit based hierarchies” when it becomes apparent that girls and women come out above them. Based on merit.

Why are young men struggling? Is it because they have to compete with people they have been told are “less than” they are and they find themselves losing? All your theories about education being too “feminized” and the need to “be a hero” break down under real life analysis. I don’t know what the answer is. I have lived and worked with men all my life and while many of them were kind and generous, many of them struggled to see women as fully human, just like themselves. And now in 2025 there are public movements aimed at limiting women’s rights and removing women from hard earned places of power and pretending that if we only went back to the 1950s or is it 1930s, everything would be all right. Why are men so susceptible to right wing propoganda and conspiracy thinking? Is it because it assures them that they are indeed superior?

I do think something needs to change. It is not good for young men to fail to launch or to try to kill themselves. I just don’t think whatever changes needs to come at the expense of girls and women.

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I’m not sure what the issue is, @mtmind. That was a direct quote from @NJSue’s post: “As a culture, we need to provide constructive and enriching avenues for male rites of passage. But that would require us to admit that young men and young women sometimes need different things. We have convinced ourselves that all sex differences are arbitrary and culturally imposed.” She clearly does not believe the statement but this paragraph seems to imply that she thinks many others do. I don’t think that is a red herring.

Addressing your point, I think a couple of posters said they were proponents of nurture over nature, which I think means that they think the preponderance of the measured differences between males and females are due to culture and social construction rather than genetics. I doubt that they would say that all differences are social constructs. I started out with the tabula rasa hypothesis, but have come to think genetics is a much stronger and pervasive influence. I have been struck by the studies of twins divided at birth. There is work now on biological differences in brain and cognitive functions. See How men's and women's brains are different | Stanford Medicine.

Back to the main point of the thread. I think there is a lot of evidence males are struggling. As I wrote in post #159, the causes for this struggling combine major political and economic changes like technology and globalization that have eliminated traditional male jobs, the introduction of birth control, the rise of DEI as the prevalent secular religion of universities but also many public and private K-12 schools. I don’t think acknowledging the struggle rather than downplaying has to undermine the continuing fight against persistent discrimination against females, though I sense in some posters’ response the kind of concern. I don’t think it is a big leap to see that males’ struggle has contributed to the rise of far right parties, to which young males have gravitated in many countries. As I mentioned, in a recent NPR interview, John Fetterman was lamenting the unchanging stance of the Democratic party, which he believed made it hard for men to vote Democratic. While there are lots of things on which Fetterman and I differ, I think he is a fairly astute reader of the political zeitgeist.

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I don’t know about the hero part - I hate overused terms and that’s one of them for me - but H was a PE teacher in a poor district for 32 years. Almost all kids didn’t have fathers. Many in prison. Many had both parents in prison. He definitely said that boys need structure and rules. They may push against it at first, but they crave it. He provided it in his class and they loved him for it. He had a great rapport with almost all of the roughest kids. He is also a big kid himself, which helps, but in the classroom he was a stickler for rules. Edit - knowing that someone cared about you was the other factor. He provided that too, and they loved him for it.

I also agree it’s not necessarily $$$ that really makes the difference, but what’s going on in the home and environment. So many kids at H’s school just come and go throughout the year. I’d help him with the height/weight/fitness scores and it’s startling how many who are there in the beginning aren’t at the end. And this isn’t a transient area. The kids bounce around from home to home, person to person, school to school, multiple times per year. Lots of them. I remember in younger S’s freshman year, he said they were asked in one non honors class what they wanted to be when they grew up. He said half the class said on welfare. And they weren’t joking. It’s what they know. This is a school where the number of kids who walk across the stage at graduation is approximately half of the number in their class as freshmen.

And a nice success story. S has had a super tight friend group since kindergarten. They’ve picked up a few along the way - mostly from soccer while still in elementary school. One was C. He was definitely not from the same socioeconomic background. Not in any honors classes. Dad never around. Though a side point, S remarked how C mentioned how he couldn’t walk through the HS halls during class at all without getting asked to see his pass. The rest of the group never once got asked. I know that made an impression. But anyhow, not so many years ago I learned Dad was in prison and was released. I had no idea. C didn’t go to college. He dropped out of community college and restarted a couple of times. Kept leaving retail and blue collar jobs are a few weeks, etc. but about a year ago he did manage to get a pretty cool and good paying job that takes him traveling around the country. I am sooooo happy for him. He is a great kid. And I doubt that he would have done it if he didn’t have the support of his friends. They are still tight to this day, even gathering in S’ city this weekend for a big birthday bash.

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IMO offering up a hollow claim that no one is making is a red herring. Same as your blank slate hypothesis.

But saying genetics plays a some role is a long ways away from pretending to be able to accurately classify individual thoughts/ beliefs/ emotions/ actions as either genetically girl or genetically boy. And teaching beyond supposed boy values is not “teaching boys to be more like girls.” That’s ridiculous.

We are seeing the same thing you noted with regard to the nonsense game theory article from the white supremacist web site. The data doesn’t say what is being claimed. The conclusions are built into the assumptions.

As for the rest, I have never denied that a segment of young men are struggling. I question the explanation so offered, the suggested solutions, and the apparent goals.

As for Fetterman, this is a wrong thread to repeatedly bring up politics and politicians.

This is just so foreign to me. I’ve raised 2 fine young men, know many and this is just simply note the truth.

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I agree. That statement is not at all my experience with my three sons.

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This is one of the most central truths when it comes to raising boys. It’s also why the lack of a father figure (whether a biological parent or a caring substitute) has such a big impact on many boys.

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Yes, the part of the book I focused on in my comment above “the contraception will never work” part was a huge part of the book (turned out to be dead wrong.) It’s what I focused on because it’s the part within my area of expertise. This low income, low opportunity, low education, young urban population is one I have worked with a lot (both as patients and coworkers) so I knew the authors were wrong rather than guessed them to be.

But if you want me to expand into what I think rather than what I know, I can do that too.

My bias is toward taking people at their word. In my experience, people are usually able to say what they want and why they have done what they do. I am not a Freudian. I don’t believe that most of our motivations are hidden from us. I may not think a person’s motivations or desires are good ones, but I tend to respect that they are what they say they are. But this book has a lot of Freudian thinking. A lot of These women say they want to do this, but WE know better; their true motivations are hidden to them but WE know them. —I find that arrogant.

So there were many assertions in the book I thought were wrong and bristled against. Now it’s been 20 years since I read the book, so I can’t enumerate each one. Perhaps you’ve read the book more recently?

My daughter, nieces and nephew all seemed to need structure, rules and consistency. Personally I think that’s true for everyone. Heck, I do better now with a predictable schedule and consistency.

In our personal circle it seems like equal representation of young men and women who “failed to launch” although it does seem like the data being shared here that it impacts young men more these days. I’m just not seeing it in my circle.

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I want to express my appreciation for what your H did for the kids he taught. Very hard work, very important and probably underappreciated in current American society.

At the beginning of my career, I taught a hard course in the first semester of the first year of a top business school. Almost the opposite of of your H’s setting but I stumbled into the same kind of approach. Kids were bright, committed, non-transient. Probably 40% or 50% of the students were afraid of failing, in part because there was a forced curve. I forget, but I think I was required to give a low grade to 10% or 15% of the students. Instinctively, I realized that being tough (here are my rules, we follow them) to start the semester would allow me to show my genuine desire that each person learned and that turned out to work very well. I wasn’t a very good teacher in the first couple of years, but my students loved me and a number stay in touch as much as 40 years later. I had not thought about it before, but I think that the teaching approached worked for male and female students, although it manifested itself a little differently. I think I stumbled onto what your husband undoubtedly did very well. It is clear that some of my students feel that I touched their lives and in your H’s setting, his ability do so undoubtly caused him to have an extraordinary impact.

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These studies certainly captured a lot of attention. I know they did mine, especially since they occurred almost in my own back yard so were widely reported on where I live --even more so than nationwide.

But these studies are now decades old, and serious methodological probloems have been unearthed. For more information, I suggest Eric Turkheimer (prominent behavioral geneticist/behavioral psychologist at UVa) as a great place to start.

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