Will take a look at Turkheimer.
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But itās for different reasons, though.
One important reason boys need rules is to learn when itās ok to use their superior physical strength during their teenage years. As in not ok to bully someone weaker, but ok during sports, and ok to protect someone.
A second important reason is to teach them to respect women, and never use superior physical strength against women.
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That is surprising to me. I have asked this question literally thousands of times to kids from low income/low opportunity/low education neighborhoods (one of my jobs has been as an embedded doctor in an innercity school-based clinic) and have never once been given the answer of welfare.
I will say that the boysā responses tend to be very different from the girlsā responses.
The boysā responses (in order) are:
Basketball player> football player>> record producer>> lawyer>>>police or fireā¦almost nothing else ever mentioned.
The girlsā responses (in order) are:
Nurse> doctor> teacher>lawyer>beautician>professional actress or singer>police or fire>>> a sprinkling of other options.
(of note, my sample includes all ages, but is heavily weighted toward adolescents)
The thing that has always struck me is that while almost all these aspirations are unrealistic, the boysā aspirations are especially so. Many of the boys still holding onto professional athlete dreams are done growing and arenāt even playing varsity sports. Based on the very low level of academic achievement in the school (many are functionally illiterate) lawyer and doctor and nurse are usually out of reach too, but at least those professional aspirations can be converted into something. So the girl who wanted to be a doctor can instead become an MA and then maybe later become an LPN, and thatās a nice middle class job. Or the girl who wanted to be a teacher can work as a teacherās aide, and thatās a lower middle class job but at least has good benefits, and there is a pathway in our state to encourage aides to become teachers. And the girl who wanted to be a lawyer can find some sort of desk job in the legal world, even being a receptionist and maybe someday paralegal. Girls are even more likely than boys to talk about the heroic jobs (police and fire) than boys are. And boys seem less open to redirection (for example, the ones who want to be a professional athlete do not want to hear about being a gym teacher, or entry level jobs at the stadium.)
So anyway, for what itās worth, I feel that the girls I talk to are much more realistic than the boys for future jobs. Donāt know how to change that.
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I have a friend/colleague who is very wise (in addition to my appreciating his advice over the years, presidents of countries and billionaires seem to seek him out for advice). His generalization was that for mental health, people need community, meaning and structure. Take away one and the person is still OK, but without two there are likely to be problems and without all three, problems are very likely. I have not looked to see if this has strong academic grounding, but on its face, it seems quite sensible.
It is pretty clear that in the era of mobile devices and social media, young people and especially young men have much weaker and smaller communities. Men in earlier eras has various activities (bowling leagues, fraternal organizations, etc.) that seemed to have declined. Mediating institutions like churches/synagogue or boys and girls clubs and the like used to impact much bigger swathes of the population.
There are a variety of ways to get meaning in life. Sometimes that comes from politics, ideology or religion, but for men in an earlier era, working to provide the resources and structure to start and raise a family may have been a source of meaning that seems less needed or desired.
And, in an online world with remote work and gig jobs, structure has vanished for many. In the old days, jobs where one worked 9-5 in an office provided structure for many who worked. That world is gone for many and I fear that the increasing penetration of AI into many jobs will increase the lack of structure.
My guess is that there has been a decline in the quality of community and structure for many people, male and female, but that the studies I have skimmed (would have to search for them) suggested that young women do a lot better in terms of creating and keeping community than young men do. So, young men may be doing worse in all three dimensions than men in earlier era.
To the extent that my friendās generalization has validity, it would predict declining mental health among all younger people but especially younger men. To the extent that the generalization is causal, reinvigorating mediating structures that help people and especially men build community would seem to be important. My sense is that finding a sense of meaning in the modern era has become harder and I fear (per @my3girls post) that right wing ideology is serving to provide meaning for a segment of young men. I think sloppy left wing ideology is also animating a segment of young people. A charismatic leader could help create a sense of meaning. JFK did that, I think (I was a little young) and Obama started that way. Trump may serve that role for a segment on the right. I wish I knew how to help people find meaning in their lives. Mediating institutions can help both in terms of meaning and structure, which may explain why more fundamentalist religions are growing and non-fundamentalist sects are shrinking (in Christianity, Judaism and Islam). The fundamentalist religion provides community, meaning and structure. I think some of @AustenNutās posts have consolidated useful suggestions that would be responsive.
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In the fundamentalist world, the man leads the home, and the woman is subservient. If thatās what guys need, no wonder they are having issues finding a partner. Women prefer to be considered equals in a relationship these days. The good news is, there are lots of guys out there who consider women as equals in relationships.
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This rings very true to me, especially lack of community and connection. Thank you for your posts!
When I think about the kids in my circle that are struggling they donāt seem to have connections with their peers. They are isolated.
I also agree that girls/women do a better job of creating/keeping connections and community.
Lots of good food for thought.
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Fundamentalist religion is not my world, but I think there are a lot of women who have become evangelicals in the last 50 years. Not clear this is solely about what men need.
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My DW and I always had this philosophy about our children whether they were boys or girls. It is our job as parents to raise our children to become independent productive members of society. We needed to make sure they obtained the skills to do that along with providing an environment to reach that goal.
We never cared what they wanted to be when they grew up as long as they could support themselves in the lifestyle they wanted. I always viewed schools as an assistant in this process. If our schools were lacking then we would have intervened and provided additional help if needed.
But more importantly our job as parents was to teach them about life and all the lessons that go into being a successful person. For example, we didnāt care if our kids played a sport or did an activity, but if you signed up for a season then there was no quitting mid-season. We made sure our kids had jobs while in HS. They were responsible for showing up on time for their shift. We were also big proponents of our kids learning about the value of money. Oftentimes if they wanted something I would offer to pay for half and they had to come up with the balance. They needed skin in the game. Of course before all of this the kids had chores in the home to do. We set expectations and the kids had to adhere to them or there were consequences.
What I donāt understand if you raised your child that way whether a boy or girl I donāt see how you could have a late twentysomething or early 30s child living in your basement not with a path to independence.
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Agreed @gpo613 . I would make an exception for a child with mental health issues, though.
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So Iāve been reading this thread all along, and working out what I could add to the conversation.
One big thing that stands out to me is that the current state of our society didnāt develop In a short time. To move it in a different direction will take time as well. It is a contorted and challenging path that we have been, and will continue to be, traveling on
With that in mind, what do āweā think this different state should look like? I think it needs to look significantly different than what we have now, and what itās been in the past.
What are āsmallā things that individuals can do to move towards that different state?
How do we work towards a society that values the contributions and choices of all individuals within the confines of a community? Is this even a goal that can be agreed upon? (Community living does need some boundaries - I have to respect otherās boundaries if I expect others to respect my boundaries.)
I make unlimited choices that affect me, but am limited in my choices when they affect/include others (guardianship situations excepted). Itās challenging to think that allowing one person to determine choices for another will work long term, without informed consent or good reason.
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Totally for sure.
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So hereās a question: where do LGBT youth (especially young men) fit into this equation? What might we learn from them?
Because, you know, in many ways lesbians acted as pioneers and role models for women during all the societal changes of the 20th century. For example, they were among the first to show the world that women could love sports and that sports could be good for women. Same with careers; they were among the first women who got educations, then got jobs, then stuck with these jobs and turned these jobs into careers. Of the 20th Centuryās famous and successful women, lesbians are quite over-represented. And yes, there was some prejudice expressed towards lesbians by society (including by other women) but women also were able to use these successful women as role modelsāastronauts, doctors, soldiers, writers, leaders, scientists, CEOs.
And now, gay men appear to be adapting well to the ongoing changes of society. They have a much higher rate of college completion than any other group. They get better grades, they make more money, they have lower rates of crime. And these improved outcomes appear true across racial groups. For example gay men, whether Black, Asian, White or Hispanic all have higher rates of advanced degree (PhD, JD, MD etc) attainment that straight men.
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I wonder if the extension of adolescence and the shift of societal expectations/dynamics have contributed to these struggles.
Rightly or wrongly, 60-70 years ago, there was a pretty well-established life plan that I think most people followed. People married much younger. I think my grandmother married when she was 15 years old! Of course, Iām now 100+ years back. At any rate, the pattern was most often you finished your education (whatever level that was), you got married, you bought a house, and you had children. Wives might have worked until children came along, but then they stayed home. The dads went to work and were the primary breadwinners. Iām neither saying this was the ideal plan, nor that all were happy in their expected roles, but that seemed to be the way things typically worked across all demographics.
Eventually, women began to have more options available to them educationally and economically. People no longer married at age 17/18/19 and set up their own households. That age group isnāt really thought of as adults anymore. Higher percentages pursued higher education such that a college degree became more of the end goal of education rather than completing high school. That extended the age thought of as being an adult, so parental support lasted longer. Couples married later and had fewer children. I personally think the single most impactful factor in societal change was the introduction of The Pill. Just lots and lots of things that disrupted that traditional pattern. Many things about those disruptions were and are good.
BUT, I think the disruption of the traditional pattern left men uncertain as to their roles. It was just a lot simpler to know what was expected of you as a man in the past. Women no longer require financial dependence on men as they might have in the past. Thatās a wonderful thing, but it is a disruption. Many more women no longer desire to have children. Cohabitation is considered completely mainstream now.
Women really no longer, āneed,ā men. I donāt know how men feel about that.
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I donāt understand this concept. Whether women need men is immaterial.
There are more women than men. Statistically men have a better chance of being in a relationship with the opposite sex than women do.
Quite frankly, without both partners working itās very difficult to get by these days. How many young men honestly expect their significant other to stay home and not contribute to the household income? Unless they live in a single wide trailer in the middle of nowhere, I wish them all the luck in the world paying the bills with a single income. Forget about having kids.
I must have missed the meeting about āmy roleā back in the 70ās and 80ās. Was it something school was supposed to teach me? Did my dad drop the ball? Maybe a coach was supposed to tell me? Perhaps the Brady Bunch was supposed to indoctrinate me? I really could use a live in maid.
Maybe Gen Xers are just wired differently?
Iām going to text my boys what they think their ārolesā as males in society are. I canāt wait for the replies.
Maybe itās because weāre not religious that Iām befuddled by the roles issue.
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My youngest son (whom Iām praying to find the right girl and fall in love) recently stopped dating a woman after a few dates because she was unemployed. I asked him why and hopefully she was looking for a job. He said, she really wasnāt and had all sorts of reasons why she wasnāt employed. I have no idea what her degree/skill set was but he was not about to date someone that he could possible fall for that would want him to take care of her. He said āyou worked my entire life until graduation from collegeā even married to his father who was sucessfully employed and heād expect a life partner to do that as well. He felt like she was going after the old āMRS degreeā. Not sure that women are still looking for that life but he felt that way with this young woman.
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Very possibly. I think it must vary a lot by religion/sect, but I was raised in an evangelical church where there was a lot of talk about God-given gender roles and lots of criticism of women for āusurpingā menās roles, and blame cast on women for causing societyās wrongs because of this.
Ha ha, hereās the reply from mine: āYou know you need me to open jars.ā
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Yeah, Iām not one to walk out during a sermon, but I wouldnāt have been able to find the door fast enough if a priest/preacher/minister said some stupid $#!+ like that on a Sunday morning. I thought all the kneeling in the Catholic church was badā¦
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My plan was to screen shot what my boys said, but soccer son really has a way with wordsā¦so no screen shots here. LEO son is working, so heāll probably reply at 3 a.m. and wake me up.
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A community shouldnāt be just about individuals setting their own boundaries and making āunlimited choicesā as if those just affect them. All actions have some impact on wider society, eg young people sitting at home taking drugs create a market for illicit drugs and incentivize more people to engage in criminal activity. Thatās true even if those drugs were legalized, whether thatās diverting prescriptions or untaxed weed. Likewise legalized gambling creates addiction amongst others, even if high status individuals may have enough self-control to resist it.
Communities need to decide on standards for the benefit of those people that donāt have the self-control or parental guidance to make smart choices. Luxury beliefs are beliefs that impose costs on lower class individuals, often under the guise of āfreedom of choiceā for elites.
The chief purpose of luxury beliefs is to indicate evidence of the believerās social class and education. Only academics educated at elite institutions could have conjured up a coherent and reasonable-sounding argument for why parents should not be allowed to raise their kids, and that we should hold baby lotteries instead. Then there are, of course, certain beliefs. When an affluent person advocates for drug legalization, or defunding the police, or open borders, or loose sexual norms, or white privilege, they are engaging in a status display. They are trying to tell you, āI am a member of the upper class.ā
Affluent people promote open borders or the decriminalization of drugs because it advances their social standing, and because they know that the adoption of those policies will cost them less than others. The logic is akin to conspicuous consumption. If you have $50 and I have $5, you can burn $10 and I canāt. In this example, you, as a member of the upper class, have wealth, social connections, and other advantageous attributes, and I donāt. So you are in a better position to afford open borders or drug experimentation than me.
Or take polyamory. I recently had a revealing conversation with a student at an elite university. He said that when he sets his Tinder radius to 5 miles, about half of the women, mostly other students, said they were āpolyamorousā in their bios. Then, when he extended the radius to 15 miles to include the rest of the city and its outskirts, about half of the women were single mothers. The costs created by the luxury beliefs of the former are bore by the latter. Polyamory is the latest expression of sexual freedom championed by the affluent. They are in a better position to manage the complications of novel relationship arrangements. And even if it fails, they have more financial capability, social capital, and time to recover if they fail. The less fortunate suffer the damage of the beliefs of the upper class.
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Well, he and I are in agreement about Canada Goose jacketsā¦
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