We saw some bullying in middle school for both kids. Mean boys early in middle school (it was an all boys middle school) and mean girls in probably the most politically correct school in the universe (but easily the best school that I have seen). ShawSon was not an athlete – he was a self-proclaimed nerd who organized game weekends (Diplomacy, frisbee golf, board games, etc.). But he also grew pretty quickly in HS from 5’4" to 6’4" with relatively broad shoulders and he became a defender of the bullied.
@threeofthree, I think you are describing a tendency but not a rule. ShawSon had a phrase in HS for a subset of the girls in his HS honors classes. He called them the OCD girls. They would show up at 6 AM to go over their homework with the teacher to make sure there were no errors when they turned the homework in. Every hair was in place. Their clothes were put together. Somehow they needed to be perfect at everything. We were a little concerned as these girls seemed exactly like candidates for some kind of eating disorder. But, clearly not all girls in his class were that way. The girl he asked to the HS prom befriended him when they were freshman. (They would talk on the phone each day for about an hour and he would probably say about 11 words total during the call). She left to homeschool (she was a professional ballet dancer and a serious figure skater and paid for her homeschooling with the dancing, I believe), attended an Ivy and has a career that CC parents would probably think is prestigious. Definitely not a typical rule follower. While testosterone is a powerful drug that increases the likelihood of risk-taking, I have coached a number of female startup founders who definitely have taken big risks.
@fallgirl, I’m sure you are correct that a) there is lots of subtle pressure to be a rule follower; and b) there can be consequences for not being a rule follower. I don’t think that I would disagree with you in any way. That is the reason there is a tendency to be rule followers.
The OCD girls were an example of that. ShawSon called them that because he thought that they were going overboard. The homework counted for very little – they didn’t need to go in every morning at 6 to fix it before handing it in. His feeling (and mine) is that one does not have to be good at everything (it is hard to be) but one can be really good at one of a few things and that will be sufficient. In the context of HS, elite college adcoms seem to require that one not be bad at anything and it really helps to be uncommonly good at one thing. Trying to be perfect at everything probably makes it hard to be extraordinary at one thing.
But, what was clear to him and us was the pressure that these girls felt to be perfect at everything. Clearly due to some kind of social pressure that could be really anxiety producing. This is probably for a different thread, but that kind of social pressure seems really problematic.
And yes, it is pretty clear from voter statistics from a couple of recent elections that a meaningful group of voters, both male and female, are not comfortable with woman as president.
I called those types of girl students “tightly wound”. It is absolutely not healthy – once they aren’t perfect (eg get a B in a class) they can fall apart. They aren’t resilient. Given the escalating mental health needs of students schools are trying to select against this type of profile.
I never saw this behavior in boys. (Of course that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist).
This was typical behavior by both boys and girls in the IB program. My son still defends his time in IB, but I would not recommend it - I saw several students crash and burn.
My daughter was one of these perfectionist types and did indeed have to overcome a major eating disorder that was triggered by Covid. It was a huge journey to go on with her. These days, the experts have the parents basically take over the feeding function (lovingly enforce the eating). It’s a terrible experience for a parent–to see your child want to starve. However, I’m happy to report that going to college and growing up have all been very good for her, and she doesn’t have any eating issues that aren’t (sadly) common to a lot of us in our crazy culture. I don’t have a problem with people describing a “type” of girl that has problems like these, because I did see them as widespread in the female populations around my daughter.
My S absolutely was (and still is) a perfectionist. He only got As or A+s in middle school, high school and college (and more A+s than As). The one time he thought there was a possibility of getting an A- in college, he opted for pass/fail (no pointing in risking the 4.0).
But he was also resilient because we encouraged him to take on challenges with a low probability of success and he realized that you can’t win them all and have to be able to deal with failure.
That has been a very useful combination in his work: far too many talented and high achieving graduates aren’t enough of a perfectionist, so they make sloppy mistakes (whether in written documents, PowerPoints or especially spreadsheets) which others have to catch.
I must begin with an apology for taking so long to reply. I’ve been doing a lot of traveling and find typing replies on my phone difficult.
Now let me see if I can clear some things up concerning the post I wrote, that you cited.
First, I get that the Africa reference may have thrown you…like why bring it up? We live in the USA.
Well, “submission” wasn’t something I came up with on my own. I was trying to give context to why I brought it up. Anyway, submission resonated with me (a woman/wife/mom) because I saw it as an example of how people often happily defer/acquiesce to the will of another out of respect and/or love.
However imo respect is earned and should be mutual between the two parties…whether it’s between two individuals, an institution and its constituents, or society and its members.
So while I can respect and buy into a moral code (and for the record I have; I married at 23, SAHM while we raised 2 children, married over 35 yrs) I am a strong supporter of individual choice. I’ll also note here that the term moral code, while straightforward in some instances, is often used to justify an imbalanced hierarchical structure imo.
As for why more girls aspire to get a college degree than boys, I suspect the discrepancy may lie more in the realm of motivation. They’ve observed their mothers, their friends’ mothers, etc. For many, feeling dependent, feeling under-valued, without agency…it all stinks.
Of course the same is true for males, but at times I believe the way we socialize our boys is counter-productive.
Of course society is allowed to have moral codes. However take a moment and consider your example of a moral code…“don’t commit adultery”. Adultery by definition involves individuals…a married person and someone who is not their spouse. The stats say men cheat more than women…though the gap is narrowing. In the not too distant past women were severely disadvantaged. We don’t need to go down this train of thought in detail, but imagine you’re the wife who was cheated on. It was during our lifetime (assuming you’re around my age) that the degree of dependence affected your choices, if not your ability to choose.
I wouldn’t say all are inherently illegitimate, but if the laws/moral codes are designed to disadvantage a demographic group without their input/involvement then yes I see it as highly suspect.
I have more thoughts on the subject but it may not relate to the topic of this thread. So to focus on males under 35 and school structure, I was toying with the idea of single gender classrooms for part of the school day in perhaps K-5. I’m not sure how it would best be structured as I taught H.S. chemistry and physics, but if there’s a way to reach/nurture young boys where they are developmentally, perhaps it would help.
Also, the Old Testament prohibition on adultery existed because a husband was thought to own his wife (or wives.) A husband could sleep with (and even marry) other women, provided the woman was not married to another man. On the other hand, a wife would be killed for sleeping with anyone other than her husband. That was how “morality” worked.
And this sort of inhumane and degrading “morality” is hardly ancient history. I’m not that old, but when I was in college it was still legal in most states for husbands to rape their wives, and some conservative scholars argued that this was a good thing. Again, this originally stems from the belief that women were property. Rape was originally a crime against either the husband or father, not the woman.
This might help explain why some are skeptical of appeals to “moral codes” with regard to improving the situation of young men, and why some are also skeptical when posters here are linking sources which view the “idealized male strategy” which includes forcible rape.
I like Gary Stevenson’s messaging. His story and opinions are very relatable to young men. His empathy and assertive energy are palpable. I actually listened to him on the Diary of a CEO podcast from March 20, “EMERGENCY DEBATE: They Lied About The Economy Recovering! Is A Financial Apocalypse Coming?”
It was one of the more difficult podcasts to listen to due to the fact that Gary Stevenson was challenging a lot of the assertions being made by Daniel Priestley and there was a fair bit of talking over one another. However I came away with a feeling of, dare I say, hope that with these conversations we will perhaps navigate these stressful times.
The point I really like and agree with is the “flip side” of the messaging from wealthy entrepreneur types. On one hand they seem to be telling young men in particular that if it’s possible for me to become a super wealthy entrepreneur then it’s possible for you. It sounds lovely on the surface but what does that tell those who are unable to successfully improve their life? You didn’t work hard enough. It’s your fault. And those discouraged young men and women then look to blame their schooling, parents and societal changes.
It actually doesn’t feel that different from college admissions at “tippy top” schools.
The discussion on the topic of wealth and its effect on young people in general is a good one.
Just wanted to point out that around the 1hr 5 min mark the conversation about what can be done to address some of the issues we’ve been discussing. At ~1hr 14 mins is where I think the large hurdle we face is defined. It’s also the part where the debate resonated more with me.
DP says “I find it strange that you think it would be easier to fix the entire global economic system than to start a business and fix your own personal economics.”
GS counters with his reasoning for taking the more difficult path of addressing wealth disparity…thought-provoking stuff.
Also there’s one more podcast that I recommend. Yes it involves Scott Galloway and revisits some of his previous stances, but it also touches on some nuanced points due to the perspectives of Trevor Noah and Christiana.
