I stayed up until almost 2 listening to that convo. I can see both sides, truthfully. I can see men with some personality types hearing what GS says and feeling hopeless, like nothing they can do will change their lot in life. I also can see some men hearing what he says and being relieved, knowing that they are doing so much “right” and still not able to get ahead.
The DP guy didn’t move me much. I think they were more on the same page than they appeared, but not everyone can just entrepreneur their way into a good life. And I loved the comments – don’t we need teachers and nurses and people who work in the service industry? Shouldn’t they be able to afford a home and to raise a family?
Clearly, we are on the same algorithm. I’ve listened to the Trevor Noah podcast already. I started following the woman on there on IG after the podcast!
Yes! That’s the difficult nature of the “struggling discussion”. It gives one a lot to consider. Personal agency varies among individuals within a demographic group.
I’m not sure this really belongs here, but I thought some of it was relevant - especially the, “what can be done about it” aspect of the original question.
This podcast isn’t specific to men, but she addresses being in one’s 20s at the 14:50 mark and being in one’s 30s at the 30 minute mark, so I felt like it was helpful in understanding the age group that is the topic of this thread. I don’t agree with how she uses some of her statistics within this podcast - specifically average life expectancies. But, she makes many salient points about how life is very different now (how work is done now, the challenges of home ownership, etc).
What I do agree with is this notion of a social timeline and how what was relevant/expected for us (or generations older than ours even) in our 20’s and 30’s should not be applied to 20- and 30-somethings now. I am pretty sure that I am starting to give off the vibe that ds is somehow, “behind,” given that many of his high school friends are now married. I am going to work hard on checking myself on that. Truth is, I am being selfish. I want ds to marry and have kids (not just for me, but because he also wants those things). But, I definitely should not be imposing a timeline like that on him. The world IS different now than it was 30-40 years ago, and I need to be more mindful of that. I wouldn’t say I am outwardly pressuring ds, but my sense is that he is feeling that, “behindness,” enough as it is. So, I need to not exacerbate that/pile on.
I recently had a talk with ds about his relationship and told him this is a me thing not a him thing, but that there used to be milestones – boxes checked – that indicated progression in a relationship. I told him that his dad and I don’t want to seem aloof for not being more embracing of his gf (“Do your parents not like me?”), and we don’t want to seem overbearing either by being too enthusiastic ("Chill out, people. We aren’t shopping for rings!). Smile and nod, smile and nod …
Yes, ds and I both have done boundary work. What used to be totally normal things to discuss now feel a bit invasive. All my questions are well-meaning, but that doesn’t mean I should ask them! And at one point he started to say something and then said “I’m afraid this is oversharing.” And he hesitated so I had an incredibly mature response – “Then don’t say anything.” WTH was I thinking??? lol See? This old dog can learn new tricks.
Yes, now that my youngest is 27 (ack), I’m realizing my help is not needed/appreciated as much anymore. I was proud of myself for not saying much as my D was looking at grad schools. I’m still wondering how in the heck she’s going to pay for it, but it’s no longer my problem. It still feels weird not to be responsible for my kids.
This article makes a lot of the points that have been shared upthread, but it does include some data points that I don’t recall having been mentioned, such as the percentage of people 25-34 who still live with their parents, or the percentage of teeneagers who have at least one friend they can lean on for emotional support. And, of course, there are the comments:
@MaineLonghorn, we find that our help is still requested and appreciated but the scope has changed. ShawWife becomes a go-to on aesthetics and real estate renovations. She used to handle emotional stuff, but absenting a breakup, she is no longer called on to deal with difficult emotional issues. Instead, she is fabulous at welcoming partners (ShawSon’s wife) and we are going to have ShawD’s partner’s family over for dinner (we have not met them as they are from another country). I advise on business stuff for ShawSon, career strategy for ShawD, financial things (make sure you are maxing out 401ks and saving 10% of your income), and for ShawD contracts with contractors and strategies to buy a car. ShawSon listens to me on health-related stuff where he has had some issues. So, this is more advising on adulting.
Thanks for the NYT article, @AustenNut. Notwithstanding the folks who don’t feel there is evidence for boys suffering, I think the question that the article leaves unanswered is what to do about it. Schools can set things up with less time sitting (like the private boys middle school my son attended that had sports and two recesses each day and didn’t require sitting at desks when in class). But are people suggesting other concrete steps?
I think the problem being discussed fits into a set of much broader economic, political and cultural waves. Changes in the economy have reduced the number of high-paying physical jobs that were largely male domains. I’ve certainly gone on about these broader changes in earlier posts. The Andrew Tate’s of the world have build very large followings for a noxious worldview because they are picking up on the lack of direction of young males. I’m not sure how much schools can do to counter these bigger forces, even if they were so inclined. In my neck of the woods, both public and private schools have been largely captured by the oppressor/oppressed intersectional worldview, so I don’t think most would be so inclined. Change in public schools will be very slow.
This gift article below is an edited transcript of an interview, but it’s also available as a Podcast. It’s a perspective from a male therapist, and, when questioned, he says:
Men should listen to what I’m saying because it’s in your interest to. You will be happier. Your marriage will be happier. You will change the legacy that you pass on to your children.
The above is a gift link to a WSJ story about a 27-year old, 3x Jeopardy! winner with a Master’s in poli sci who is living at home and was introduced on the show as a “stay-at-home son.”
It was interesting to read about his perspective. Additionally, this statistic was new, and sobering, to me:
This graduation season is likely to produce a whole lot of stay-at-home sons. The overall unemployment rate is 4.2%, but 8.2% of 20- to 24-year-olds are jobless. The unemployment rate for men in that age range is even worse, 9.6%.
Can someone explain the difference between joblessness and the unemployment rate? Does the extra 1.4% take into account underemployment, so that some of the guys have jobs but not ones via which you can support yourself?
6.8% of women and 9.2% of men is 8.2% overall. Young men are more like to want/be allowed to sit around playing video games all day…or more charitably, young women have better qualifications and are more hireable.
I would be interested to see statistics on college majors for those stay at home sons. I know someone who fits into that category and so is also has this major. I wonder if the mindset those selecting this major has something to do with their outlook vs those with more employable majors.
Thanks for sharing this, @KnightsRidge. This caught my eye:
Kindergarten has become significantly more academic because of the effects of a national law passed in 2001, with children expected to spend more time sitting still and learning math and reading — and many boys do not enter with the skills to meet those expectations.
If we think about kids entering kindergarten in 2001, it would be people who were born around 1996, so folks who are now around age 29. So when we’re talking about males under 35 who are struggling, the vast majority of them would have been a part of cohorts that had different expectations for kindergarten.
This graphic shows how much the expectations for kindergarten changed between 1998 and 2010.
Jayanti Owens, who studies inequality in schools at the Yale School of Management, has found that boys’ behavior at ages 4 and 5 predicted the amount of schooling they finished by their mid-20s.
And unlike many pieces that describe depressing topics, this one does have some solutions, some of which we’ve discussed in this thread:
Researchers say there are ways to support young boys. Starting them in kindergarten a year later could help close gender gaps in maturity. Male kindergarten teachers could be role models who know what it’s like to be a boy in school.
A powerful way to help boys — and girls too — is to bring back more play into the early years of school, because it’s how young children learn best, researchers and teachers said. Movement, music, time outside, games with peers and activities like puzzles all help children build skills like self-regulation and executive function. Play-based preschool has been shown to shrink gender gaps.
The comments make for very interesting reading (I’ve only read some of the NYT Picks so far).
