Many new facts/twists to Martin-Zimmerman case

[lindz126]

<p>This is the part I don’t follow. Z said he lost Trayvon when following him and retreated back to his car and then Trayvon came up on him, taking him by “surprise”. However this doesn’t jive with Trayvon’s girlfriend’s statement that Trayvon said this guy’s following me again, hearing him ask Z why are you following me, Z saying what are you doing here, then the phone drops. That was the time of the physical altercation based on phone records. So it seems Z’s statement that Trayvon “started” the altercation does not seem accurate. He seemed to have continued to follow him according to that phone conversation, and the timing of the altercation.</p>

[kleibo]

<p>BC - what you can say is that Z was not running after TM. You cannot say without a doubt that he did not continue to try and find TM by walking in the direction he last saw him.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<p>The transcript indicates that he was originally going to meet the police at his truck but his truck wasn’t at an address so he later agreed to meet them at the mailboxes. The speculation that I’ve seen is that Martin hid somewhere and that Zimmerman ran into him on the way to the mailboxes. Martin could have made it to his girlfriend’s house in two minutes from where he lost Zimmerman (at 7:14).</p>

[kleibo]

<p>To me it seems like he changed his mind because he didn’t know where he would be. </p>

<p>911 dispatcher:
OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]</p>

<p>Zimmerman:
Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]</p>

<p>911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …</p>

<p>Zimmerman:
Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]</p>

<p>911 dispatcher:
OK, that’s no problem.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>what you can say is that Z was not running after TM. You cannot say without a doubt
that he did not continue to try and find TM by walking in the direction he last saw him. </p>

<br>

<p>Zimmerman agreed to return to his truck to meet the police. When he couldn’t provide an address to meet at, he agreed to meet them at the mailboxes. The simplest explanation is that he was going to meet with the police as he agreed to. I can’t say for certain that he wasn’t looking for Zimmerman because I wasn’t there. But I prefer to go with Occam’s Razor when the evidence points that way.</p>

[kleibo]

<p>Yes - we both weren’t there - so we both are making assumptions. However, I believe the evidence points a different way.</p>

[BCEagle91]

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<p>To me it seems like he changed his mind because he didn’t know where he would be.</p>

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<p>He may have changed his mind or not on going to the mailboxes but it seems like he wanted the option to be somewhere else (perhaps at his truck of car). There’s no indication in the transcript that he caught sight of Martin though - I’d guess that he would have told the police if he had seen him again.</p>

<p>The call ended at 7:15:24. The call to the girlfriend ended at 7:16. Just after the confrontation. So their meeting happened within 30 seconds of when the 911 call ended. The police arrived at 7:16 so the physical altercation took a minute or less.</p>

[kluge]

<p>

@Bay

If Z had not been carrying a gun, it is possible that he would have been the one who ended up dead or brain damaged. Would that not be a perfect reason to own a gun?
…
It is possible that Z would have followed Martin whether he possessed or gun or not, particularly if Z had no intention of actually confronting Martin, but rather to keep an eye on his whereabouts until the police arrived. There is no way to know this for sure.</p>

<p>I also recall the facts being in dispute about who actually confronted whom in the end. Didn’t Z say he was returning to his car when Martin showed up and asked “Why are you following me?” thus initiating the confrontation.</p>

<p>There are too many unknowns at this point to jump to the conclusion.

While I’ve always felt that the true sequence of events would remain uncertain, there’s no question in my mind about the impact of Zimmerman’s possession of a handgun on the unfolding of events in this case.</p>

<p>I know the gun nu… excuse me, “Defenders of the Constitution” don’t want to face reality in this case, because it’s just too raw and clear: this is what really happens when you encourage a bunch of people to walk around with guns. You don’t get “the most polite, law-abiding society imaginable.” You don’t see guys playing out their adolescent fantasies of “shootin’ the bad guys”… well, you do, but it turns out that, like most people whose understanding of human behavior hasn’t changed much since they were 14 - they screw up. </p>

<p>They do things like stalk an innocent 17 year old because he looks “wrong” and end up shooting him, destroying one life and pretty much ruining another - not to count the loved ones.</p>

<p>Did Trayvon circle around and confront Zimmerman? May have. Can you blame him?<br>
Would any of this have happened if Zimmerman didn’t have a gun?
Not in one million years.</p>

<p>This is the reality of the world the gun nuts have been rooting for.</p>

<p>There have always been dumbasses. Always will be.</p>

<p>Now we’ve got dumbasses with guns.</p>

<p>Yeee-Haw!</p>

[hayden]

<p>Oh, goodie. Less clarity! Now one of the after the fact witnesses (i.e., non-witnesses) has recanted his story. This is the witness who said he saw Martin on top, beating Zimmerman, with Zimmerman crying for help. He now says he didn’t after all actually see Z crying for help, but rather he assumed it.</p>

<p>

On March 20, according to the Orlando Sentinel, while sitting for a follow-up interview by a Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigator the witness said that he was no longer sure who was calling for help.</p>

<p>“At first, I thought it was the person on the ground, just because, you know, me thinking rationally, if someone was on top, the person on the bottom would be yelling,” he said, according to the Sentinel. “I truly can’t tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk. You can’t see a mouth …”

</p>

<p>This is just another example of how eye witness testimony is flimsy evidence, in this and so many other cases. Who knows if his first story is accurate, or the story now.</p>

[hayden]

<p>BCE, it should be easy to figure out exactly how long the altercation took place, by the end of Zimmerman’s 911 call, and the sound of shots on the 911 call of the neighbor.</p>

[lindz126]

<p>[Trayvon</a> Martin Case: George Zimmerman Made Racist Remarks At Work (LISTEN)](<a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>Trayvon Martin Case: George Zimmerman Made Racist Remarks At Work (LISTEN) | HuffPost Voices)</p>

<p>my own impression of Z is that he is an angry and suspicious person. He has the history of arrests, both for violent behavior. This coworker reports bullying. His neighbors reported him to be aggressive. Also imho reflected in how he “apologized” to Trayvon’s parents during his court appearance for bail. I recognize this is only my impression, and does not prove anything about this case, however the best predictor of violence is past violence. I personally don’t trust his account at all.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>it should be easy to figure out exactly how long the altercation took place, by the
end of Zimmerman’s 911 call, and the sound of shots on the 911 call of the neighbor. </p>

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<p>Even finer granularity is available - the end time of the 911 call is known as is the end time of the call to the girlfriend and when the police showed up - a neighbor reported seeing the officers’ flashlights on one of the 911 calls.</p>

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<p>my own impression of Z is that he is an angry and suspicious person.</p>

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<p>He’s on Adderall which is a psychotropic medication so he’s been diagnosed with AD(H)D.</p>

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<p>I personally don’t trust his account at all. </p>

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<p>Has any of what he has said conflicted with known facts of evidence so far? Has any of what he has said been confirmed with known facts of evidence so far?</p>

<p>Is he racist against blacks? </p>

<p>[George</a> Zimmerman’s MySpace Page Unearthed | TPMMuckraker](<a href=“Category: Muckraker - TPM – Talking Points Memo”>Category: Muckraker - TPM – Talking Points Memo)</p>

<p>He seems to be racist on Mexicans even though he identifies himself has latino/hispanic.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<p>“I could hear the wind blowing” and “he said he lost him,” said the girl, who is from Miami and who said she had known Mr. Martin since kindergarten. She has not been identified because she is a minor and a witness in the case.</p>

<p><a href=“Trayvon Martin’s Friend Tells What She Heard on Phone - The New York Times”>Trayvon Martin’s Friend Tells What She Heard on Phone - The New York Times;

<p>Seems pretty clear that Martin lost Zimmerman given that Zimmerman told this to the 911 operator and Martin told this to his girlfriend.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<p>Zimmerman told investigators that he was walking back to his vehicle according to the above NY Times article.</p>

[lindz126]

<p>to answer you bceagle—yes, imo, his statement that he had returned to his car, and Trayvon came up behind him does not fit with the call with the gf and altercation immediately following. how did he walk back to the car unaware of Trayvon and then Trayvon tells the gf Z was back. </p>

<p>also he stated Trayvon was suspicious, based on WHAT? he was a guest in the community out getting a snack, so Trayvon was not in fact suspicious, that was only in his mind. this was the original issue, why did he pursue this young man to begin with?</p>

<p>I don’t know if Z is racist, but the info we are hearing sounds like he has behaved that way on several occasions. Also, the fact that Z identifies as White or mixed race Hispanic does not preclude him being racist against others. additionally one can racially profile and not harbor racist feelings…</p>

[kleibo]

<p>BC - where are you getting the information about what Z said to police officers. All I have seen is news reporting of what was supposedly said (sources say). Have any of the real transcripts come out?</p>

[lindz126]

<p>Martin told her that he was going to run. She could hear the wind blowing in the phone’s speaker.</p>

<p>“He was breathing hard,” she said. “(his) voice kinda changed. I know he was scared. (his) voice was getting kinda low.”</p>

<p>Suddenly, she heard Martin say, “Why you following me for?”</p>

<p>The girl said she could hear another voice, one she described as deep and belonging to an “old man.”</p>

<p>“The old man say, ‘What you doing around here?’”</p>

<p>She asked Martin repeatedly what was going on, but he didn’t respond. </p>

<p>She said she heard someone say, “Get off,” though she thought it was her boyfriend.
She heard rustling, then nothing. No screaming, no gunshot.</p>

<p>again, imho, if this is accurate, it shows that Z was following Trayvon right before the altercation, NOT back at his car, not blindsided by Trayvon. Trayvon sounded scared.</p>

[FutureWeatherman]

<p>To the person who asked (Bay, i believe) why there was a neighborhood watch imposed, it was because residents were scared after numerous break-ins in the gated community. After people being robbed while in their homes and the failure of the police to arrive on time, Zimmerman was asked to become the neighborhood watch captain to help report suspicious activity. </p>

<p>I remember reading this story on Yahoo, will try to see if I can find it.</p>

[BCEagle91]

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<p>his statement that he had returned to his car,</p>

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<p>I didn’t see this statement anywhere. I only saw in the NY Times article that he said that he was returning to his car.</p>

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<p>and Trayvon came up behind him does not fit with the call with the gf and
altercation immediately following. how did he walk back to the car unaware of
Trayvon and then Trayvon tells the gf Z was back.</p>

<br>

<p>Trayvon could have been hiding and Martin walking back to his car could have come near his hiding place. Trayvon would have interpreted that as still being followed and emerged and then asking Zimmerman why he was following him.</p>

<br>

<p>also he stated Trayvon was suspicious, based on WHAT? he was a guest in the
community out getting a snack, so Trayvon was not in fact suspicious, that was
only in his mind. this was the original issue, why did he pursue this young man to
begin with?</p>

<br>

<p>That was in Zimmerman’s mind because of his previous encounters with people that committed robberies in the neighborhood.</p>

<p>[Minute-by-Minute</a> Timeline of Trayvon Martin’s Death | The View From LL2](<a href=“http://viewfromll2.com/2012/04/05/minute-by-minute-timeline-of-trayvon-martins-death/]Minute-by-Minute”>Minute-by-Minute Timeline of Trayvon Martin’s Death | The View From LL2)</p>

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<p>I don’t know if Z is racist, but the info we are hearing sounds like he has behaved
that way on several occasions. Also, the fact that Z identifies as White or mixed
race Hispanic does not preclude him being racist against others. additionally one
can racially profile and not harbor racist feelings… </p>

<br>

<p>He identifies as Hispanic/Latino. His MySpace page has a picture of him, with a white and two black friends. Some of the timeline web pages are interesting though they haven’t been updated with some of the latest information. They provide a good framework for what happened and a lot of assumptions and alternative explanations.</p>

[BCEagle91]

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<p>where are you getting the information about what Z said to police
officers. All I have seen is news reporting of what was supposedly
said (sources say). Have any of the real transcripts come out?</p>

<br>

<p>“Mr. Zimmerman has told the police that he saw a suspicious teenager
roaming around the Retreat and followed him on foot before losing
sight of him. As Mr. Zimmerman was walking back to his vehicle, he
told investigators, Mr. Martin emerged and punched him in the nose
before jumping on top of him and attacking him. Mr. Zimmerman said
that he then shot Mr. Martin to save his own life.”</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/us/trayvon-martins-friend-tells-what-she-heard-on-phone.html?_r=1[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/us/trayvon-martins-friend-tells-what-she-heard-on-phone.html?_r=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>This appears to be reporters interviewing police officers.</p>