Match a PA Junior Looking to Combine Economics With Some Field of Science [PA resident, 3.98 UW, 1530 SAT, NMSF]

Chance Me / Match Me
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So, I’m a high school junior and am a few months into my college search. I’ve been on more tours now, and realized that I have a bunch of questions, so I’m starting this to get advice.

Demographics

  • US domestic (US citizen or permanent resident) or international student - US citizen
  • State/Location of residency: (state is important if you apply to any state universities) - PA
  • Type of high school (current college for transfers) - Public
  • Gender/Race/Ethnicity (optional) - White
  • Other special factors (first generation to college, legacy, athlete, etc.) - Legacy at Duke, sibling at USC, but nothing else

Intended Major(s) - Some meshing of economics and some sort of science, possibly engineering

GPA, Rank, and Test Scores

  • Unweighted HS GPA - Currently 3.98 (one A-), but it’s looking like physics might be an A-
  • Weighted HS GPA (incl. weighting system): - HS just gives one point bump for honors or AP, and since I’ve been in all honors or AP, it is a 4.98
  • Class Rank: - Don’t have
  • ACT/SAT Scores: - 1500 (770 English/730 math) after my first take, but I’ll be taking it again. I hope I can get my math to at least a 750, since I’m doing well in BC calculus and made a bunch of small errors last time, but you never know
    -1480 PSAT (760 English/720 Math), so will be NMSF
    5’s on macroeconomics and microeconomics, 4 on CS A

Coursework
(AP/IB/Dual Enrollment classes, AP/IB scores for high school; also include level of math and foreign language reached and any unusual academic electives; for transfers, describe your college courses and preparation for your intended major(s))

  • APs: Microeconomics, Macroeconomics, Computer Science A, Physics C Mechanics, BC Calculus, Human Geography, Lang so far
    -Will take AP Lit, Gov, Latin, Physics C E&M as a senior, as well as linear algebra (no MVC offered) and ceramics to fulfill my art requirement for if I want to apply to UCs (and also because I am looking forward to it)

Awards - Gold on a National Latin Exam, if that counts for anything. Also will be NMSF

Extracurriculars
(Include leadership, summer activities, competitions, volunteering, and work experience)
My extracurriculars are not very good. Varsity athlete for 3 seasons/year, work a part time job, minimal service (tutoring a SAT bootcamp on Schoolhouse right now)

Cost Constraints / Budget
My parents have funded a 529 for me. It is enough for an undergraduate education anywhere, but if I want schooling after that, I would need to take out loans

Schools

  • Likely - Pitt, Penn State (I have visited both, and would be happy at either. getting into either honors college would probably swing me towards one or the other)
  • Match
  • Reach - Duke, Georgetown, Purdue, USC, Dartmouth

Ok, so now for my thoughts. Sorry if this is long.
For a while, I had no idea what I wanted to do in college. But I have enjoyed my calculus and physics classes this year, and realized that I really want to do something that incorporates my love for math with my love for thinking. I think that becoming a lawyer would be right up my alley, and potentially patent law for the science aspect of it. So, while I know lots can change between now and then, my goal for now is to look for a place that would allow me to pursue this. My first question is, while I know you can become a lawyer from any major, is there any science-oriented major patent engineers tend to pick to get the science background?

Also, there is the fact that an expensive undergraduate education would force me to take out loans if I want to pursue a graduate degree. I will almost definitely be an NMSF, so I would obviously have options. I am quite interested in the programs at Alabama like Blount and Randall, and the campus seems beautiful. But my parents are very reluctant to the idea of me going to a school they perceive to be low caliber (even though they seem to have no problems with my interest in UVM, despite it not being all that much higher on the rankings). I have visited Pitt and Penn State, and really liked both of them, so I think I would be happy at either. They are both much cheaper than other options, but still not inexpensive.

Since I am comfortable with my options in Pitt and Penn State, I’m mostly looking for schools to reach for (or just any schools that fit what I am looking for). Of the schools I have visited, I really liked Dartmouth’s location and campus. I am a big skier, and at first I thought being close to skiing would be a must. It has now changed to just a positive, since I realized not being freezing cold the majority of the year would have its merits. However, I’m not quite sure if Dartmouth would work for my interests. It seems that their engineering is just a broad certification, which might make it unviable.

And, I won’t lie, I am superficial in that a pretty campus with beautiful architecture is a major plus to me.

Thanks everyone in advance for the help!

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You tagged first generation. Was that a mistake?

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You have a sibling at USC. Would they be okay with you attending USC as well? If you are admitted, as a NMF you will receive a half-tuition scholarship.

Regarding combining science and econ/law/policy, there is more out there than just patent law. Not that there is anything wrong with patent law, just don’t feel that it is your only option.

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Take a look at https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/OED_GRB.pdf for the educational prerequisites for the patent exam.

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Yes, that was definitely a mistake

Yes, they would definitely be okay with me attending, and I have USC on my list. I’m not a big city person, so being in the heart of LA isn’t something that I would be thrilled about, but I have visited the campus and really like it.

Definitely, I understand. And I’m sure that a few years down the line I may feel very different about what I want my career path to be.

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Congratulations on making yourself a strong applicant!

I will say that your ECs are very good; it’s impressive to be a 3-season varsity athlete and you have a part-time job to boot.

You’re wise to be thinking about your various options and about general affordability for both college and grad school, if you intend to do grad school.

While I understand that you’re currently thinking about going into patent law, I would also think about a Plan B (and maybe Plans C or D). What do you think you might want to do if you don’t go to law school? Any possibilities that you’re thinking of would become plans B-D. So while you’re thinking about going on to do patent law, think about what other majors/fields would need to be at a school for you to do any secondary plans.

In thinking about trying to match you, what is it that drew you to Duke, Georgetown, Purdue, and USC? There are beautiful campuses across the country. Based on all the colleges on your list, I’m assuming you might be an enthusiastic fan of college athletics (but am I right?). But since you don’t particularly like cities, I’m confused about USC and Georgetown’s places on the list. And though you’re concerned that Dartmouth’s engineering program is just general engineering, Georgetown isn’t ABET-accredited for anything in engineering.

Do you have any preferences regarding class sizes? Greek life? Is there a particular vibe you’re looking for? Are there any particular interests that you’d like to pursue in college (outside of skiing)?

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So have you thought at all about Econometrics/Quantitative Economics? Seems like it might be something you might like to explore. It isn’t impossible to combine science or engineering with Econ, but this is a much more well-established option for people who like Math and Econ, and applying both Econ and Math to real world problems. Very broadly useful field, for law school or many other business and policy applications.

This can be a focus area within a general Econ degree, but some colleges have dedicated majors.

Chicago as a possible reach (nice campus, actually). Northwestern too. You already have Duke and Georgetown (this area of strength for the latter which seems a little under the radar). WUSTL has one of the nicest campuses I have personally seen. This is a strong area for Vanderbilt.

Dartmouth DOES work for this if you like it otherwise. What about SLACs? Middlebury, for example, is also up in ski country, very good in this area. Totally different part of the country, but Claremont McKenna is very strong in this area.

Less reachy, Pitt is a good choice here as well. You might want to also check out Rochester. Actually, they could work great if you want to go the STEM and Econ route too.

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Definitely. I need to do research on other fields that combine some sort of critical thinking with some form of science.

I haven’t, but it definitely seems like something right up my alley. Based on ucbalumnus’s list, it seems like those fields don’t cover the requirements for patent attorneys. So, if I wanted to keep that as an option, maybe I could double major in some form of Econometrics and some form of science - but I know I am probably getting overly ambitious. That’s what I’m struggling with right now, choosing fields of study that are realistic and that leave as many doors open as possible.

3 of the 4 I have visited and liked the campuses. Purdue is on for its engineering program, but it is on there pretty tentatively.

Ok great, so I’ll keep Dartmouth on the list. I visited Middlebury, as well as a couple of other places in the northeast. At the time, I thought the size would fine for me, but as I’ve visited bigger places I have started to move away from small schools. I think it would just be too small for me. It’s something that worries me a bit about Dartmouth as well, but to a lesser extent.

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Okay, based off your most recent message, these are some schools you may want to investigate. They are medium to large, are generally located within a few hours of skiing, all have various ABET-accredited areas of engineering, a number of them have fairly strong athletic spirit, and they’re generally not focused in big cities. Most of these schools also offer merit aid, so even if they have high price tags, there’s the possibility for the price to drop.

Extremely Likely (80-99+%)

  • Gonzaga

Likely (60-79%)

  • Santa Clara

  • Syracuse

  • U. of San Diego

Toss-Up (40-59%)

  • Lehigh

Lower Probability (20-40%)

  • U. of Rochester

  • Virginia Tech

  • Wake Forest

Low Probability (less than 20%)

  • Cornell

  • U. of North Carolina

  • U. of Virginia

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You are in fact going to have to make some choices eventually. Engineering is usually the toughest one to keep open while also exploring other things–it is pretty intense and schedule-consuming from the beginning. In general, while patent law is one option, there are many, many areas of the law where you don’t need to belong to the patent bar but you still can make use of scientific literacy and math skills (I know, because I did it–I have the credits for the patent bar but never bothered because I found a different practice area I really like). And you might not be a lawyer at all–there are so many different ways to make use of such abilities and background knowledge.

So my two cents is you can just start in college with a good mix of econ, math, and science, and see where your interests take you. Maybe it leads to the patent bar, maybe something different, but it is a good starting point.

Or engineering, but again that will tend to take up more of your schedule. Still, colleges like Rochester, say, are good about making sure their engineering students can also do other stuff. Actually, Wake Forest is like that too (on the list from the poster above). So those are some options to consider.

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To clarify, I would say I am not a big city person. I don’t think I could do Columbia or NYU. But I really like the environment of Pitt, which I would say is urban but not in downtown Pittsburgh. The Georgetown area of DC is similar, and I found it to be amazing.

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Thanks for the advice. It just seems so difficult when there is so much that I want to do and explore but not enough time to do it. I think that engineering is probably more than I am looking for, so I’ll look into other ways to incorporate math and science in.

If I were to choose something like Econometrics, what would be your take on the importance of school ranking? Is it worth shooting for the moon, considering that going for law school afterwards would require loans?

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You can have a double strategy:

  • colleges you like for their environment&honors college AND are going to be below a certain price point, which would likely be instate costs at Pitt/PSU.
  • colleges that are a great match for you even if the NPC reveals you’ll be full pay (since your parents saved all that money, use it, then shoulder the cost of law school, which, at age 23-25, should not be as much of an issue since you’d have worked and, presumably, saved).

With about 6-8 colleges on each list, and at least one safety in each column.

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Yeah, at some point people with broad interests have to accept the reality they cannot do everything. That said, some career paths are better than others for people who like learning new things. I actually switched out of academia to a legal career when I realized with some careful choices my legal career could be good for that purpose. Consulting is another possibility for people like that, and there are more.

This really depends on your personal and family financial circumstances. I think as a general rule, it is a VERY good idea to try to avoid emerging from law school with a crushing amount of debt, because that will then play a large role in determining what you can practically do next. And in fact part of my strategy as referenced above was to avoid that, and it worked for me.

OK, but for some students/families, it is possible to avoid a lot of law school debt even if they pay a lot for college. For others it would be impossible, or take such sacrifices in other areas it doesn’t make sense. So you just have to understand what you are really looking at.

The good news is a variety of public colleges would be very good choices for Econometrics before possibly law school. Pitt and Penn State are actually both on that list. So you can absolutely consider those, just understanding you will want to make a point of getting the best grades possible to maximize your law school options if you choose that path.

Going to like a Duke or Georgetown will ALSO work great for that purpose, and I think have a somewhat higher margin for error in terms of what grades you would need for a given law school. But what is that higher margin of error worth in money? Hard to say, and again I think you have to consider that in the context of your personal and family circumstances.

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So… I know this is high-reach school, but if you haven’t already done so, take a look at Brown.

There are a few concentrations (Brown’s equivalent of a major) that might be of interest to you:

Applied Mathematics/Economics:
Applied Mathematics-Economics < Brown University

Computer Science-Economics < Brown University

Mathematics/Economics Mathematics-Econ (A.B.) | Economics | Brown University

And perhaps most relevant to your interests, the ability to get a BA in an Engineering discipline rather than an ScB, which Brown says is great for a potential future in patent law.
Of course, the BA isn’t ABET accredited (the ScB is), but that may be fine for what you want.
Concentrations | Engineering | Brown University

The first two concentrations listed above also offer the possibility of either a BA or ScB degree, giving you additional options.

And of course, Brown’s Open Curriculum removes almost all General Education requirements, thus freeing a lot of time for students to follow various academic interests. (There are two writing-intensive classes required – one in the first two years and one in the second two, but they can be in any of a very broad range of disciplines.)

The Open Curriculum | Brown University

If you would truly like to study engineering as a pathway to being a patent law attorney, then Brown’s AB in one of the engineering disciplines sounds like it would be a good match for you, and would also enable you to write a very authentic “Why Brown” essay.

And Brown also gives very generous financial aid, even to families with relatively high incomes. Your fully funded 529 counts as an asset, and assets are not assessed nearly as highly for financial aid purposes as income (this is true at all colleges for need-based aid). You don’t mention family income, but it would a good idea to run the Net Price Calculator at the schools of interest to see if any would give you any need-based financial aid. Each college is required to maintain a Net Price Calculator on their financial aid page.

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I was trying to take it easy on the reaches, but for what it is worth I agree Brown is a fantastic reach to consider for the reasons you stated. Also has a very nice campus in a location in Providence that I suspect will work for someone who thought Pitt and Georgetown had good locations.

By the way, we have already mentioned it, but at least some kids in my circles tend to treat Rochester as being a considerably less reachy, with merit as a possibility, option on the same branch of the college family tree as Brown. Not a fully open curriculum but very loose and encouraging of broader explorations of interests, solid departments all around including engineering, nice campus in a nice medium-sized city . . . again, already mentioned but I think worth considering for a list if Brown appeals.

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Another school you might want to think about is Georgia Tech. It’s part of the ARCHE consortium so you can take classes at other Atlanta-area schools like Emory, Morehouse, Agnes Scott, etc. In addition to econ, various sciences, etc, these two majors might be of particular interest to you (or inspire you to look for similar programs elsewhere):

Industrial Engineering

Focus: blending mathematics, physical sciences, and business applications to form a program of study built on probability, optimization, statistics, computing, economics, and psychology.

History, Technology, and Society

Focus: building upon a broad-based training in humanities, mathematics, computing, science, and social sciences to further focus on global issues related to the origin and impact of technology and science.

Georgia Tech also has a strong coop culture, which can help bring extra money in and give you a solid foundation for a career should you decide not to go into law school, or to put you on a more solid position when looking for a job for a few years prior to going to law school. Additionally, Georgia Tech costs a lot less than similarly “elite” colleges, though it’s more than the PA publics for you.

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Sorry for the delayed reply –

Thanks for the recommendations, everyone. Brown, Rochester, and Georgia Tech have all been added to my tentative list, as well as Northwestern and some others that were mentioned previously. I’m gearing up for my second SAT test tomorrow; I’ve taken a couple of the math practice tests and was scoring better so I’ll see what I can do to raise my score. Hopefully that would bring some of the high reaches into regular “reach” category (meaning, at least conceivable chances, even if they are still pie in the sky).

I don’t want to stereotype any student body, but I have heard Brown has a reputation for being more “nerdy”, or something of the sort. I get that the response will probably something like ‘you can find your people at any school’, but is there any merit to the stereotypes? And, if so, should I pay any attention to them? It also seems like they have one of the highest average family incomes of any school (understanding this is common across all ivies and similar). I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily anti-preppy or anything, but I would prefer to stay away from any place where the norm is Canada Goose coats and where everyone knows each other from private schools. Again, that’s another stereotype. What I am trying to say is, if anyone has any insights on the culture at Brown, I would appreciate them.

Also, I don’t think I will have any B’s on my transcript, at least by the time I am applying. From what I can tell on here, some high schools would count that as a 4.0, but mine counts A-s as 3.7. Do colleges rescale the grades? Will some think I have a 4.0? And is it possible that a lot of people think they have a higher GPA than they actually do according to the colleges?

Thanks

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Perhaps @Catcherinthetoast can provide some insight?

From my understanding, most will recalculate grades according to their own formula, as high schools tend to do it all differently. The most common is likely to be having all As be a 4.0 (whether A-, A, or A+), Bs as a 3.0, Cs as a 2.0, and Ds as a 1.0. Typically, they will often compute an academic GPA, meaning only using English, science, social studies, math, and foreign language classes but excluding subjects like P.E.

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I have honestly never heard Brown described as nerdy! Crunchy, Boho, Social Justice Warrior heaven, Artsy… but never nerdy!

Yes, there are nerds at Brown. There are frat bros at Brown. There are students who spend all their time in the music practice rooms, and students who run from the sculpture studios to the pool and then time in the Sciences library.

You should investigate on your own before accepting someone else’s definition of preppy or nerdy or anything else. And that goes for every school on your list. Read a few issues of the student newspaper. Log on to info sessions if you can’t visit in person. Ask to be matched with a student from your area for a phone conversation.

There are lots of ways to suss out campus culture!

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