Match/Chance Me: Econ/Environmental Studies Major, Oregon, 1450 SAT, 3.9 GPA

[boiwth]

Two clarifications, since I’ve seen some things related to post-grad plans and cost come up multiple times:

1. Econ is my passion and what I want to study. While my dream would be to help design policy at the Fed with environmental impacts as a limiting factor, I don’t think that’s very realistic. However, if my school ended up having a good environmental program, then I’d probably opt to minor in that over poli sci, if only for the experience of getting to study a subject which I’m very passionate about and interested in. Also have considered law, if only for my strength in speech and quick thinking, and the fact that Econ is a common major for pre-laws.
2. My parents tend to be flakey about a specific number that they’ll contribute. They’ve told me they won’t let me take on any student debt… but they also haven’t said that condition won’t limit where I could go.

@Gumbymom

Have you considered Cal Poly San Luis Obispo which has a very good Environmental program?

@Gumbymom I haven’t really considered it. My main hesitance stems from the fact that a relatively high # of students from my HS attend each year (probably 10-20/class), and that it has seemed overly party-focused to me. I wasn’t aware of the strength of their Environmental program, however– I’ll take a look. Also, thank you for all of the UC data. That’s really helpful too!

@aquapt

• If he likes Upper New England academicky-liberal-arts enough to ED1/ED2 at Dartmouth/Middlebury, why aren’t any of the Maine LAC’s (Colby/Bates/Bowdoin) on the list?
• If he’s considering OOS publics and loves Upper New England environment-heavy, I’d consider adding UVM. (Would be cheaper than UCSC OOS, with a lot of the same positive attributes.)
• Out of all the non-New-England LAC choices, he has only Mac and Oberlin, which are quite different from each other. Why those two? Has he considered Denison, Dickinson, Hamilton, Colorado College, Whitman…?

@aquapt Thank you for your wishes and the suggested schools. Hadn’t thought to look into those.

1. The reason for applying to Dartmouth as ED1 is because I have special circumstances there (won’t specify, as to avoid revealing anything personal) which should improve my still slim chances of admission above the ED baseline. Additionally, it seems that Dartmouth’s ED acceptance rate is high enough that it includes a decent # of non-legacy/recruited students. My reason for applying ED2 to Middlebury is similar to that of Dartmouth– i.e. ~40% combined ED acceptance rate versus ~14% (?) RD. Meanwhile, Bowdoin- which I do like a lot, but not enough to justify as a 17th school– has a combined ED rate of 13% relative to RD of 7%. Similar numbers for Colby, and there’s already somebody from my school who’s been recruited by them which I’ve heard decreases my chances. Tbf haven’t looked much into Bates.
2. I also really enjoyed UVM when I visited it. Main reason it’s not on the list is that one of my parents went to Madison and prefered that I applied there instead.
3. I’m only applying to both because my other parent attended Mac, and both grandparents on one side of my family attended Oberlin. Feel that I owe it to all parties who have brought it up to apply to their respective alma matters since they’re paying most of the cost of college. Oberlin is especially easy since it doesn’t have supplementals and my grandparents, who have been pushing it since I was 10, will be happy to pay the application fee.

@DadTwoGirls

You might want to also pay attention to how difficult it would be to get back and forth to / from each school on your list from where you live. Don’t forget that at least a few of your schools (eg, Dartmouth) are in areas where snow around about Christmas vacation is entirely possible.

@DadTwoGirls Thank you very much for all of the advice and insight. I think you’re right- a number of schools on my list end up being quite different in environment. Others in my life have commented on this as well. I end up liking schools with different characteristics, for different reasons, which I hypothesize is why this ends up occuring.

FWIW- I have family within a 30 minute drive of Dartmouth who I visit 2-3x per year, so I’m pretty used to travelling to/from the Upper Valley.

@AustenNut

In terms of chancing, what have your AP scores been like so far? You have a couple from 10th grade, and this year’s results are starting to be released today, per a quick internet search.

@AustenNut Thanks for the SUNY College of Environmental Science Rec! Never even considered that but I’ll take a look.

My AP scores haven’t been excellent, though they haven’t been terrible either. Freshmen aren’t allowed to take them* at my school. My school offers 11 AP classes, 1 of which is limited to students in a language immersion program, 2 of which are in art, which hasn’t been my knack since elementary school, and 4 are in science subjects which I received low As in the core classes I had for them (Physics 1, 2, Chem, Bio). Will take AP Spanish next year but I obviously won’t be applying with a score.

*Language immersion program students can take the AP version of the class their freshman year.

I took AP HuG and AP Euro in 10th, got a 4 and a 5 respectively. Self-studied Macro for like 6 weeks and got a 3. Took AP Lit (order is switched at my school for some reason) and APES and got 4s. Self-studied Micro for 1 week and got a 3, and self-studied APUSH and got a 5.

Speaking of, seeing as I received 2 Bs in my core US history class this year, will the 5 on APUSH help shed some light on the difficulty of that teacher’s grading policies?

For simplification: 3s on both AP Econ tests, 4s on AP Lit, APES, and AP Human Geo, and 5s on AP Euro and APUSH.

@thumper1

That’s $25,000 per year. Will your parents pay the remaining costs for you to attend college annually?

They will. The $100,000 account has increased in value by ~18% year over year, which is why I’d like to keep holding it until I’m buying a house, and ideally I won’t tap into it until then.

[boiwth]

Do people here have any opinions on Wellesley? How about Clark Honors @ U of O?

[ucbalumnus]

@boiwth

My main hesitance [about CPSLO] stems from the fact that a relatively high # of students from my HS attend each year (probably 10-20/class), and that it has seemed overly party-focused to me.

The reason for applying to Dartmouth as ED1 is because I have special circumstances there (won’t specify, as to avoid revealing anything personal) which should improve my still slim chances of admission above the ED baseline.

If party focus is a problem, investigate Dartmouth very carefully (especially before applying ED), since it has a very “wet” reputation and high participation in fraternities and sororities.

@boiwth

Econ is my passion and what I want to study. While my dream would be to help design policy at the Fed with environmental impacts as a limiting factor, I don’t think that’s very realistic.

Economic research tends to have heavy use of math and statistics (if you go on to PhD study in economics, expect to need substantially more advanced math and statistics than typically required for an economics major). Also, college economics departments vary in how math-intensive their intermediate microeconomics and econometrics courses are, so that may be a consideration.

[SJ2727]

@boiwth

Econ is my passion and what I want to study. While my dream would be to help design policy at the Fed with environmental impacts as a limiting factor

Fyi, my company hires quite a few people out of the various Feds. Almost all of them have econ PhDs (and of the younger bunch, all of them). If the Fed is your aim - I’m not sure that it is from what you’ve said - decent course work in math and probably some in computer science (programming) is something you should be thinking about as preparation for a PhD.

[thumper1]

@boiwth

The $100,000 account has increased in value by ~18% year over year, which is why I’d like to keep holding it until I’m buying a house, and ideally I won’t tap into it until then.

Unless something has changed, this $100,000 account will be an asset when you apply for financial aid. If in your name, about 20% will be expected to be contributed to your college costs when your net price is calculated by the college. If in your parent name, about 6%. It doesn’t matter where that money is…if it’s yours or your parents, it must be included on the financial aid forms.

@kelsmom @Mwfan1921

[Mwfan1921]

@thumper1

this $100,000 account will be an asset when you apply for financial aid.

Yes, this is still true for many students, and student savings are assessed at 20% and parent savings at 5.64% in FAFSA’s SAI calculation. Assets in each of the student’s and parents’ names are reported as of the day of filing FAFSA (and CSS as applicable).

Note that some limited income families don’t have to report assets on FAFSA, but that doesn’t sound like OP.

ETA: even though OP’s $20K will be included in financial aid calculations, that does not mean that OP has to tap into that money to pay for college. Something to chat about with OP’s parents.

[thumper1]

@boiwth

Intended Major(s): Economics, Public Policy, Environmental Studies, Political Science

I know it’s a tough OOS acceptance, but University of Washington seems like it would check these boxes.

[AustenNut]

@boiwth

I took AP HuG and AP Euro in 10th, got a 4 and a 5 respectively. Self-studied Macro for like 6 weeks and got a 3. Took AP Lit (order is switched at my school for some reason) and APES and got 4s. Self-studied Micro for 1 week and got a 3, and self-studied APUSH and got a 5.

Speaking of, seeing as I received 2 Bs in my core US history class this year, will the 5 on APUSH help shed some light on the difficulty of that teacher’s grading policies?

For simplification: 3s on both AP Econ tests, 4s on AP Lit, APES, and AP Human Geo, and 5s on AP Euro and APUSH.

Most colleges typically aren’t overly impressed with self-studied APs and prefer to see that an actual AP class was taken. Thus, I would not send your AP econ scores in as I don’t think two 3s would help your application and the college has no way of knowing about them unless your report them. I do think it would be beneficial to send the AP US history one, however, as it was a 5 and might speak to the rigor of your history class.

[SJ2727]

@thumper1

I know it’s a tough OOS acceptance, but University of Washington seems like it would check these boxes.

Outside of a couple of majors (comp sci and maybe engineering?) I’m not sure it’s super tough, especially with OP’s stats. I know you can’t really compare across schools, but at our HS OP’s stats is in the middle of a bunch of green on the applications scatterplot.

[AustenNut]

@boiwth

• The reason for applying to Dartmouth as ED1 is because I have special circumstances there (won’t specify, as to avoid revealing anything personal) which should improve my still slim chances of admission above the ED baseline. Additionally, it seems that Dartmouth’s ED acceptance rate is high enough that it includes a decent # of non-legacy/recruited students. My reason for applying ED2 to Middlebury is similar to that of Dartmouth– i.e. ~40% combined ED acceptance rate versus ~14% (?) RD. Meanwhile, Bowdoin- which I do like a lot, but not enough to justify as a 17th school– has a combined ED rate of 13% relative to RD of 7%. Similar numbers for Colby, and there’s already somebody from my school who’s been recruited by them which I’ve heard decreases my chances. Tbf haven’t looked much into Bates.

In my opinion, you should only apply ED to a college if it is your top choice and you don’t care if you learn about other potential acceptances or offers with terrific programs and merit aid. If Dartmouth is your clear #1 and Middlebury is your clear #2 out of all of the schools you’ve considered, then I think your decision to ED to them makes sense. If they’re not, however, I would strongly reconsider your plan.

@boiwth

• I also really enjoyed UVM when I visited it. Main reason it’s not on the list is that one of my parents went to Madison and prefered that I applied there instead.

U. of Vermont would be an extremely likely admit for you. I agree with you that U. of Wisconsin is probably a toss-up. If you liked UVM better than Madison, then it would make sense to take off Madison because you’re highly likely to get into UVM. But one generally doesn’t take a highly-likely admit off the board because one prefers a toss-up. Would you prefer to attend UVM or U. of Oregon? That’s the fairer comparison.

For your sure things, they should have three qualities: affordable, extremely likely to admit you, and you would be happy to enroll and attend for four years. Additionally, I prefer when people have at least two schools in that category because even if everything else goes haywire with their other apps, students will get to make a choice in the spring between at least two schools. So UVM (or a different extremely likely admit that you’d be happy to attend and would be affordable) could make sense in that context as well.

[aquapt]

Thanks, that explains a lot. Sorry for the third-person reply - somehow I got into my head that I was addressing the parent rather than the student, though re-reading your original post now, it’s clear that you’re the student.

In your position, I’d try to keep both UVM and UW-Madison on the list if possible. You don’t know what your merit awards may look like; it’s possible UVM could end up being a better financial value, which could override the parent alumni preference.

You’re being very strategic about everything, which isn’t a bad perspective to include, but I’d encourage you to weigh perceived “fit” a little more heavily too. It makes me uneasy that you’re considering binding ED1/ED2 applications to schools that aren’t necessarily resonating as the best possible fit, just in hopes of maximizing prestige-odds. (As another commenter already noted, shying away from SLO on the grounds that it’s too much of a party school, but then EDing to Dartmouth, seems… incongruous.) While you have some financial flexibility, you’re also cost-sensitive, so it really could be smart not to ED at all, and to leave yourself the freedom to compare offers. It can feel essential to participate in the ED arms race, but it really isn’t.

Bates may deserve a closer look, given your preferences. If women’s colleges are in the mix, Wellesley could be great to consider, but also take a look at Scripps, as you could access most of the same opportunities there as at Pomona, CMC, and Pitzer. Most prospective students underestimate how blended the Claremont Consortium really is. Scripps itself has a lot to offer, and if you’re already set on applying to those other three and you’re also open to a women’s college, I don’t see an argument for leaving it off the list.

Have you considered Santa Clara?

Have you contacted coaches at the D3 schools?

[AustenNut]

@boiwth

a number of schools on my list end up being quite different in environment. Others in my life have commented on this as well. I end up liking schools with different characteristics, for different reasons, which I hypothesize is why this ends up occuring.

I think what might be really helpful, @boiwth is if you could talk about what kind of college experience you’re hoping for. Apart from knowing that you have a passionate interest in economics and that a school that is overly-focused on parties is a deterrent, there’s a lot of unknowns here. Some things that may help spark your thinking are:

• Vibe of students you’re hoping to find (whether that’s arty/preppy/sporty/pre-professional, or some combination of other things
• Whether you want the majority of students on-campus to have that type of vibe, or roughly what percentage/number
• Climate (sunniness/cloudiness, warm/cold, humid/dry, etc.)
• Size of classes
• Importance of Greek life
• Presence of significant enthusiasm for intercollegiate sports
• Any religious or political considerations
• States/regions you prefer or prefer to avoid
• Any extracurriculars you hope to pursue in college
• Size of school
• Location of school (super-urban, near-urban, suburban, college town, remote)

Knowing more about what you want lets people give better feedback on your current list and suggest any other options that might be a good fit for you.

[ucbalumnus]

Regarding University of Washington…

@SJ2727

Outside of a couple of majors (comp sci and maybe engineering?) I’m not sure it’s super tough, especially with OP’s stats.

Note that economics is a capacity constrained major, meaning that it has competitive secondary admission to declare the major. Environmental studies is not capacity constrained. Note that these majors are in different divisions, so check how difficult it is to change divisions, or have two majors in different divisions.

https://advising.uw.edu/degree-overview/majors/list-of-undergraduate-majors/

[SJ2727]

@ucbalumnus

meaning that it has competitive secondary admission to declare the major.

Oh right, i forgot that UDub does that with a bunch of majors (and actually the reason C26 didn’t end up applying there). Agree OP needs to look into that if considering this college as an option.

[boiwth]

@ucbalumnus

If party focus is a problem, investigate Dartmouth very carefully (especially before applying ED), since it has a very “wet” reputation and high participation in fraternities and sororities.

@aquapt

(As another commenter already noted, shying away from SLO on the grounds that it’s too much of a party school, but then EDing to Dartmouth, seems… incongruous.)

Maybe should have clarified that the hesitance stems from what I perceive as an excessive focus upon partying. Maybe that’s the case for Dartmouth, too, but I also have figured that the difficulty of coursework and the common pursuit of professional opportunities would ensure a greater emphasis is placed upon academic/professional interests.

@ucbalumnus

Economic research tends to have heavy use of math and statistics (if you go on to PhD study in economics, expect to need substantially more advanced math and statistics than typically required for an economics major). Also, college economics departments vary in how math-intensive their intermediate microeconomics and econometrics courses are, so that may be a consideration.

I have figured that most colleges on my list have decent math programs which would sufficiently prepare me for research which used that knowledge. Does the quality of math + stats instruction significantly vary across schools, including those with strong econ programs?

@thumper1

Unless something has changed, this $100,000 account will be an asset when you apply for financial aid. If in your name, about 20% will be expected to be contributed to your college costs when your net price is calculated by the college. If in your parent name, about 6%. It doesn’t matter where that money is…if it’s yours or your parents, it must be included on the financial aid forms.

@Mwfan1921 Does it make a difference if the money is held in my grandparent’s name until I turn 21?

@AustenNut

If Dartmouth is your clear #1 and Middlebury is your clear #2 out of all of the schools you’ve considered, then I think your decision to ED to them makes sense. If they’re not, however, I would strongly reconsider your plan.

@aquapt

It makes me uneasy that you’re considering binding ED1/ED2 applications to schools that aren’t necessarily resonating as the best possible fit, just in hopes of maximizing prestige-odds.

Dartmouth is my clear #1. I wouldn’t say that Middlebury is exactly my clear #1 among ED2-offering schools, probably more like my #3 among schools that offer ED2, but I also feel conscious about the concept of “wasting” an ED decision. Pomona and CMC are above it, but their ED rates are significantly lower than Middlebury’s. I like all of the named schools a bunch and would be thrilled with going there, but considering what I feel are plausible odds at Dartmouth, I want to give it a shot. Do you think I should consider changing my ED2, at least?

@AustenNut

U. of Vermont would be an extremely likely admit for you. I agree with you that U. of Wisconsin is probably a toss-up. If you liked UVM better than Madison, then it would make sense to take off Madison because you’re highly likely to get into UVM. But one generally doesn’t take a highly-likely admit off the board because one prefers a toss-up. Would you prefer to attend UVM or U. of Oregon? That’s the fairer comparison.

For your sure things, they should have three qualities: affordable, extremely likely to admit you, and you would be happy to enroll and attend for four years. Additionally, I prefer when people have at least two schools in that category because even if everything else goes haywire with their other apps, students will get to make a choice in the spring between at least two schools. So UVM (or a different extremely likely admit that you’d be happy to attend and would be affordable) could make sense in that context as well.

I don’t think taking Madison off is an option since my parent alum wants me to apply.

I would prefer to attend UVM. However, when the difference in tuition is >$120,000 over 4 years, it’s hard to argue against applying to U of O at the very least.

Do you think that UVM could be a good replacement for LMU, for instance? I think that LMU, aside from being in relative proximity to the ≥3 Claremont schools that I’m applying to and having a strong business program, doesn’t share as many similarities with the remainder of the list as a number of other schools on there including UVM.

@aquapt

Have you considered Santa Clara?

Have you contacted coaches at the D3 schools?

Haven’t considered Santa Clara. Any reason(s) in particular that you think it would be a good fit?

I also have hardly contacted coaches. I’m a far better XC runner than I am a track runner, and thus, I think that I could have some races this year which could make me a prospective recruit for top D3s which I also really like outside of athletics (i.e. PP, CMS).

[Mwfan1921]

@boiwth

Does it make a difference if the money is held in my grandparent’s name until I turn 21?

If in your grandparent’s account/name, you wouldn’t report that on FAFSA or CSS Profile,

[thumper1]

@boiwth

Does it make a difference if the money is held in my grandparent’s name until I turn 21?

Is it YOUR money? If so, you need to be honest about that. If it’s yours, you need to report it no matter where it is located. @BelknapPoint

Or does this money actually belong to your grandparents?

[boiwth]

It belongs to my grandparents. It will belong to my grandparents until I am 21.

[thumper1]

Then I guess the bigger question is….will your grandparents give you any of this money for college prior to age 21? And is there anything in writing that obligates them to do so? If not, this money is theirs, and really can’t be counted on, right?

Regardless…I think you have a good college list. I would at least look at UDub. It might be just fine for your interests.

We have four close family members who are Dartmouth grads and who are successful, and a fifth who attended for about a year. They all agree, there is a party culture there. But if you are into the outdoors, their Outing Club is top notch.

[politeperson]

@boiwth

I also have hardly contacted coaches. I’m a far better XC runner than I am a track runner, and thus, I think that I could have some races this year which could make me a prospective recruit for top D3s which I also really like outside of athletics (i.e. PP, CMS).

XC season is late to start contacting coaches if the goal is admissions support at selective schools. Most of the identification and filtering is happening now. It’s not impossible that a discussion could start in the fall and lead somewhere, but it’d be rare.

In addition, track times really are key in recruiting. Placing well at big meets like the state meet or NXR/NXN can help but at the end of the day most coaches want to see XC results supported somewhat by FAT times on the track. Just as an example, your 16 flat 5K might be a very good time on some courses, less rare on others. The track times help coaches distinguish, esp if they aren’t local and don’t know your local courses.

I’m not saying there’ll be recruiting interest at any of these schools. My guess is that your times probably aren’t there right now. But you’ll only know if you email (the D3 schools; not schools like Dartmouth where I’m certain your times aren’t recruitable).

The good news is that even if you aren’t recruited, there’s a chance you can run at some of these D3 schools if admitted on your own (and that’s another reason to reach out to coaches, just to start building that relationship). And the larger schools have running clubs.