<p>I don’t think most Catholic parochial primary schools have entrance exams, but I could be wrong.</p>
<p>Page 16+ in the NJ doc discusses the rights of disruptive students. I don’t think we can grasp the complexity of all the issues related to publicly educating, not in one thread. But, if they are willing to spend public monies (my dollars and yours) on problem kids, are they equally focusing on good kids who deserve a boost? That’s where, in my system, I have to say no. So-</p>
<p>A student facing long-term suspension or expulsion, particularly in a district that does not employ alternative strategies and programs for addressing student discipline, or does not place students in an alternative education program, could argue that the unequal treatment of students throughout the state violates the education clause.</p>
<p>But a good kid can’t extract herself, unless her family can pay or some school gives substantial aid.</p>
<p>I’m thinking out loud. I know what hard decisions we made for our kids, what bullet we had to bite to do so. My concern is poor kids who could be empowered in a better situation.</p>
<p>Btw, no non-public school can take all comers; they have onltyy so many seats. And, we should (I think we must) distinguish between schools run by Catholic orders and parochial or parish schools. There can be a big difference in mission. And quality.</p>
<p>[Zelman</a> v. Simmons-Harris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelman_v._Simmons-Harris]Zelman”>Zelman v. Simmons-Harris - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>here is the summary of the Supreme Court case re vouchers. </p>
<p>If you want your state to offer them and the program established meets the requirements - have at it. </p>
<p>It is interesting to note that Tennessee was about to pass a law that would have allowed tuition vouchers to religious schools but pulled it when they realized that Islamic school could get money, too.</p>
<p>Emily, here the Catholic elementary academies have entrance exams or other requirements. The schools (other than academies) sometimes do and sometimes don’t, but most have waiting lists and absolutely don’t take everyone.</p>
<p>In NJ many have entrance exams. So taken together removal of disruptive students, some verified minimum educational qualification, demonstrated parental involvement is it any wonder many private schools have a leg up on many public schools?</p>
<p>I honestly have no idea what the parochial primary schools but I don’t think the parish schools here have entrance exams. But yes, they are absolutely not required to admit everyone who wants to attend, as almost any private school - whether religious or not has an enrollment limit - unlike public schools which have no enrollment limit.</p>
<p>My K-8 Catholic school required absolutely no type of admission exam in any grade level. However, they were extremely desperate for people so maybe that had something to do with it. They only expelled one person in my 9 years there. They didn’t want to lose the tuition money. No matter how much bullying, failing classes, skipping classes, etc students engaged in- they were not asked to leave. My last two years were terrible because of disruptive students. </p>
<p>Some of our Catholic high schools do but a few had alternative routes of admission (I don’t know what they were but I know some of my classmates didn’t have to take exams).</p>
<p>“In NJ many have entrance exams. So taken together removal of disruptive students, some verified minimum educational qualification, demonstrated parental involvement is it any wonder many private schools have a leg up on many public schools?”</p>
<p>When compared with public schools the statistics, after adjusting for selective student characteristics, it appears that the differences are not significant. </p>
<p><a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/studies/2006461.pdf[/url]”>http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/studies/2006461.pdf</a></p>
<p>But yet the myth persists that “private schools are better” and that all publics are “failing.”</p>
<p>Where I live, the publics fare better than the privates, and the more diverse urban schools generally do better than their homogeneous suburban counterparts.</p>
<p>Catholic schools are struggling to provide faith-based education for kids with special needs. The percentage which do so has increased in recent years. [One</a> faith, one school - Washington Post](<a href=“http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2010-02-23/news/36871281_1_students-with-intellectual-disabilities-special-education-teachers-special-education]One”>http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2010-02-23/news/36871281_1_students-with-intellectual-disabilities-special-education-teachers-special-education)</p>
<p>Many Catholic dioceses have special schools for children with special needs. See, for example, [Special</a> Education Schools | Archdiocese of Philadelphia | Office of Catholic Education](<a href=“http://www.catholicschools-phl.org/our-schools/special-education-schools]Special”>http://www.catholicschools-phl.org/our-schools/special-education-schools)</p>
<p>I know that here in NYC one of the best schools for the profoundly ■■■■■■■■ is run by the archdiocese.</p>
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<p>Really? Show me the proof. Since they aren’t subjected to the ludicrous testing public schools are, it is a matter of taking it on faith, especially if you look at an apples-to-apples student population.</p>
<p>I can give you anecdotal evidence of some populations that are much better served in public school. For example, I know three families whose children were students with mine at what is arguably the best private school in our area. In one case, the parents were informed that their child was hiding under his desk at reading time–he was in fifth grade and had been at this school for his entire education to date–at the meeting in which they were told that their child should be removed from the school. (This was the FIRST time they heard this, and the mother was a teacher at the school!) They removed him and sent him to our local public school, in a state of mental anguish. They had been paying extra money for special tutors to help him with his LDs at the private school all along. His mother told me that his reading went up THREE grade levels in 6 mos with the competent help he received at the public school. Another family had to remove their children because of divorce and financial woes. (Although multiple generations of their family had gone to the school, no financial help was forthcoming.) Two of the children had LDs. The mother told me that all three of the children were thriving at the public school in the town next to mine, and that the ones with LDs in particular were making enormous progress very rapidly, now that they were getting competent help. A third mother told me that on the first or second day of public school in yet another good local district, the teacher contacted her and said that she thought their son had hearing problems and should be tested. It turns out that he was indeed partially deaf: something that had escaped the notice of the staff at the private school, who just thought he had “issues.”</p>
<p>I am very disturbed by the idea that we should just boot kids who are considered “disruptive” from school for good. Why not just send them directly to prison, people? After all, Pennsylvania has just shown that they willing spend hundreds of millions building new prisons while closing schools. And in many places prisons are a big profit-making industry.</p>
<p>And WHY are those kids “disruptive”? Do they have mental health issues? Family dysfunction? Learning disabilities? Giftedness? it behooves us to address those things instead of just throwing kids on a garbage heap.</p>
<p>While we address those things, how do we protect the other children and teachers from the disruptive behavior? Don’t the other kids and teachers deserve to learn in a safe and productive environment? I am sorry that the kid in my son’s honors middle school class had problems, but someone painting the walls and furniture of the classroom with feces had no place in the company of other kids.</p>
<p>Well said, Consolation. Sadly, no one wants to spend the money so they look to cheap, easy solutions.</p>
<p>You are absolutely right, zoosermom, I agree. I think that in general there does not seem to be a sufficient plan for dealing with those kids.</p>
<p>Consolation - Post #671 was excellent. Well said.</p>
<p>^I agree. Our public schools do a great job of integrating special-needs kids, too. The private schools, not so much.</p>
<p>Another difference between public and private schools where I live is that the private schools (as well as the wealthy suburban publics) have far worse drug problems than our city schools.</p>
<p>Which comes back to the argument that some kids will never succeed unless they are removed from the home.</p>
<p>My D teaches upper grade special Ed. She truly believes that there are many kids warehoused in special Ed just because they are minority boys, and then that there is another entire subset of kids who need full time help that the schools can’t give.</p>
<p>ZM, I absolutely agree with you. I worked with kids who came from some of the most despicable environments one could ever imagine. School was the least of their worries (and it showed). </p>
<p>What do you think the solution is? Our foster care system is abysmal- especially with older minority kids. Would you support funding public boarding schools? (My apologies if this has been brought up- fast-moving thread)</p>
<p>I left my job at an inner-city public school after the only American-born child threw a desk at me and the teacher apologized to the MOTHER that I upset her child. UM… I had never even spoken to the child and had no idea who he was. He was moved to another classroom and was later sent to another school after he beat the crap out of a kid. The only reason anyone knew who did it or what happened was because I could translate for the child that was beat up.
When I worked with the ELL kids, it was a wonderful job and I loved it. My teacher was disgustingly incompetent though. Our principal was worse- each of the FOUR we had in the two years I worked there.</p>
<p>My son gifted in math got to go do math with kids two grades ahead of him in public school. My nephew is one of the most well known privates in the country was told that they couldn’t make special math arrangements for him just because he was precocious. They also strong urged parents not to let their kids take the SAT in 7th grade, so they weren’t eligible for CTY programs - which my nephew would have loved.</p>
<p>I am a believer in the little of this, little of that solution. I emphatically support publicly funded, high quality boarding schools. I thi k that could help the kids with difficult homes who have the maturity and academic potential to succeed when all their needs are taken care of. I support programs for the parents in schools to help some motivated parents who have the desire but not the knowledge to do better. I support blended age classrooms for some kids who just need a little time. I support cut-off dates based on readiness rather than age, and I heavily heartedly acknowledge that there is a large number of kids who will never be educated to the point that they can Move up the economic ladder.</p>