The origin is various bits of data I have seen over the years, including College Transitions Pathways study as recently discussed here. Along with observations like that information that would be relevant to such an analysis is included on CAS Reports. Presumably that is because law schools at least sometimes use that information.
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No no I didn’t mean it was an auto admit or anything, more the fact since most people applying to law school have a pre-law or legal studies track and I’d stand out with a business-based background (or I’d like to think so? This is what a few people told me, I could be way off)
I thought this was super interesting, thanks for sharing your experience! I love the dorm style of ND a lot and the culture seems amazing. I am worried about Penn’s grind-culture and how easy it’d be to make friends- some people describe it as a “work hard, play hard” school, but I’m sort of doubting the play hard part. I know both options will be incredible but I’m wondering if extracurriculars are easier to get involved in at Notre Dame versus Penn, specifically competitive clubs. I love keeping myself busy and working hard, but I don’t want it to be my whole life at college, you know?
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Not true.
Easy to Google the most common majors of law school applicants. If I recall correctly, history was at or near the top of the most common majors list. (Among the top ten majors which apply to law school, history majors have the highest admit rate to law schools followed by econ majors.) However, any undergraduate major is fine for law schools as the admissions teams focus on applicants’ undergraduate GPA & applicants’ LSAT or GRE score.
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The club culture at Penn is extremely competitive and intense. It did not seem so at Notre Dame, other than maybe auditions for performing arts.
Could you give more insight? I’d love to know more. I know LSAT and GPA matter of course, but extracurricularly how would it differ across majors for law school admission?
So was resume building harder at Penn than ND based on your kids’ experiences? Having a decent resume at the #1 School versus a great resume at the #6 School seems like it wouldn’t be ideal.
Sorry, but I do not understand the above highlighted portion of your post.
Sure, I will answer your questions regarding law schools & law school admissions.
At least at the more selective law schools, a pre-law or legal studies track is actually not the norm, and indeed generally not a good idea.
Here is a chart showing the most popular majors in a recent cohort, ranked by average LSAT, as per LSAC data:
Poli Sci is typically the most popular major, by a wide margin. Psychology is then usually a distant second. Both Business and Finance made the list (there are many, many more majors with smaller numbers).
Honestly, trying to stand out with your major is unlikely to work, for admissions purposes you should really just pick something you like and can get very good grades in. I would avoid things like (edit: some, not all, it depends on the rigor) Legal Studies or Criminal Justice if you are interested in selective law schools, and maybe a few other majors not considered rigorous. But anything that is a sort of “normal” STEM or HASS major is fine, and also Business stuff (at least at the undergrads you are considering).
In terms of actual preparation for law school, though (an underrated consideration in my experience), I would make a point of doing something very reading and writing intensive. Majors like Philosophy, History, Literature, Classics, Religion . . . core Humanities where there are going to be dense, sometimes obscurely-written, texts that you need to read, analyze, and write about are great for building the skills you will use in law school. Not strictly necessary, but if you want to get the best possible grades, do things like law reviews and journals, maybe clerk, and so on, it isn’t a bad idea.
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I think it depends on what activities you want to do. I never felt like my ND child had a hard time joining any club he desired and was able to get internships and jobs pretty easily (he was not looking to go into finance in NYC), my daughter at Penn is a freshman, she said all of the clubs require applications and many rounds of interviews, even to volunteer, and I think it sounds very competitive.
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This is too broad of a statement.
Criminal Justice majors typically are the lowest scorers on the LSAT, but Legal Studies majors vary by school. For example, the Legal Studies major at Northwestern University is very selective and by application only. The mentoring & projects can be life changing both for individual students as well as for particular groups of people.
The highly individualized recommendations from the Legal Studies professors at Northwetern University are unusual for their detailed knowledge of the student and of the student’s work product, work ethic, etc.
I think law school is four years out and you may or may not go. But you will be in undergrad next year, so you should study what you want and not worry about law school admissions.
No matter what you major in, you can apply and get into great law schools - but that’s far down the road.
But don’t think about major and law school. Think about - what do I want to study next year and for the next four years!!
That’s all that matters.
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While I understand your intention regarding this advice, I think that it needs a bit more explanation.
While there is no need to worry about getting admitted to a law school (there are about 200 ABA accredited law schools in the nation), one should be concerned about earning a high GPA (regardless of one’s major) in order to be competitive in one of the two major factors for admission to elite law schools as well as for merit scholarship consideration at almost all law schools (Harvard Law, Yale Law, & Stanford Law do not award merit scholarships).
Broadly stated, the goal is to get an offer of admission to a Top 14 (US News ranking) law school or to earn a large scholarship to a Tier One law school located in the geographical region in which the student intends to practice law.
Almost everything important regarding law school admissions is focused on an applicant’s undergraduate GPA and the applicant’s LSAT score. Econ majors, history majors, philosophy majors, and various STEM majors tend to score the highest on the LSAT exam–even though one’s major is not relevant typically for getting admitted to a highly selective law school.
I get that -I’m just saying OP is solely focused on this. They may not even go to law school. In fact in post one, OP says they’re not married to the idea of law school.
I get they’ll need a great gpa and LSAT but if I’m a finance guy (because it’s what I want), I’m not changing to sociology so my gpa is a 3.8 instead of 3.6 is all I’m saying. And those kind of assessments lack any truth anyway - as no one knows.
Given this student’s choices, I have no doubt they’ll be fine in four years.
That’s a fair point. I’ll edit.
Much depends upon the individual student’s goal regarding a career in the legal field. A small firm, small town practitioner can relax regarding academic prep and school pedigree, but quite different for one targeting certain practice areas and certain types of law firms in Wash DC, New York City, San Francisco, and a couple of other locations.
I routinely review the public profile backgrounds shared on elite Wash DC & NYC law firms. Educational accomplishments from college through law school are shared and highly valued by the nation’s most selective law firms and Judges/Justices. Publications, college & law school honors, foreign language proficiency/fluency, etc. appear to be highly valued. When reviewing the public backgrounds of attorneys at the top law firms in the nation, it seems clear that there was an intense focus on academics from well before matriculation at law school.
After finishing law school, one of the most selective law firms in the city required transcripts from law school, college, and high school before considering one for an interview. Top judicial clerkships often delve beyond one’s law school accomplishments as well.
Even more surprising, at least to me, is how frequently these superstar academics fail to flourish in the practice of law even at firms focused on highly intellectual academic type matters.
Nevertheless, if one simply desires to be a high earner, then the practice as a personal injury lawyer requires no-pedigree whatsoever, just a license to practice law.
OP: Since you will be entering business school at either Notre Dame or at U Penn-Wharton, law school is not a likely outcome as your other options may prove to be too lucrative to give up three years of earnings in order to enter a profession for less money than your pre-law school potential might yield.
Over the past four or so decades, one question that I pose to students debating whether to attend business school MBA versus law school JD is whether they prefer to work in a group or to work alone.
Also, and probably most important for one considering business versus law, is the orientation of business professionals as compared to that of attorneys. At the core of each professional path, the mental framework is almost polemic opposites. So, again, entering business school is a first step away from law school & the practice of law, not toward them.
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Lots of discussion about potential outcomes going on. Visit Penn and see what you think. Note that if you are interested in working overseas, Wharton is a much valued credential.
But in the end, please go where you feel you will thrive for the next four years. You are obviously a bright and motivated student and I expect you will do well wherever you enroll.
Please come back and let us know your decision.
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This is incredibly helpful. Foreign language was one of the things that I had more difficulty grasping in high school, so that’s a bit worrying. Lucrative careers are desirable right out of Penn or Mendoza for sure, and I’d definitely be open to that option; but I’m concerned about resume-building at Penn. I know the name carries a lot of weight compared to an average school, but I don’t want to have a just decent resume at Penn due to the competitiveness of the extracurriculars (I know nothing’s set in stone, but I’m against the best business minds my age in the world; I’d be lying if I said that wasn’t at least intimidating) versus Notre Dame I feel like it might be easier to land major leadership positions or extracurricular awards and bragging points (again I could be wrong but I think the competition will be slightly less formidable)
If I were to go to the legal field, I’d want to earn some decent money at a firm for a while (bigger firm, probably; maybe corporate, maybe general defense?), then do mostly pro-bono work once I have money to support my family comfortably.
I’ll definitely tell you what I end up deciding!
Stop worrying - two top schools said - hey, let’s admit him.
You may not hit every home run in college but tons of kids get hired by just going to school. And that’s not you.
You’re going to be fine either way. Stop over thinkng.
You like UND. You have no idea about Penn.
Go visit.
All the “extras” about major for law school and - am I competitive - guess what - you might not become Jeff Bezos (or you might) but you’re going to be solid regardless - as long as you want to be.
You have to live your life and you’ll have to see how to pans out.
I don’t think Wharton has the best and brightest of the business world per se - but even if they do - well, they chose you. There’s a reason.
Relax - you’re going to be ok - even if you don’t get in the most competitive club.