I wouldn’t assume this. There are lots of kids at ND who turn down Ivy league schools because they want the environment ND offers with football, community, etc. My daughter who mentioned the “grind” nature at Penn has a friend at Penn who visited a friend at ND and said she thought the kids were “smarter” because they had fuller lives with interests, hobbies, etc. outside of just doing well in school. I’m not saying one or the other is better, but they are very different environments. Only you can decided which feels better to you, I doubt you’ll suffer educationally from either choice. You should definitely visit Penn - I think you’ll either like the city campus or not and you can compare better once you have.
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Just going to echo what everyone else has said.
There are Wharton grads who end up in second or third tier law schools because they couldn’t hit the right set of numbers with their GPA and LSAT. Some of these schools are great options for a person who wants to practice a specific area of the law in a particular region; some of these schools are cash grabs with abysmal bar passage rates.
There are no gold tickets. Sadly. There are Wharton grads who thought they were on the fast track professionally who end up working at a P&C insurance company developing risk models for motor cycle owners. NOTHING wrong with this. But not what Wharton grads typically think of when they have the “7 figures by 30” fantasy which is what led them to Wharton in the first place.
Agree with the advice- figure out what you want out of your EDUCATION and be confident that the path will emerge at some point.
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I’m just going to throw this out there again–are you SURE you want to do an undergrad business program? Understanding it won’t give you any sort of advantage for law school, are you still passionate about the experience for its own sake?
Of course you can start and see how it goes, but I would again suggest a lot of what seems to be concerning you in terms of culture and competitiveness could be business-school-specific, so knowing you don’t have to persist with that path if it isn’t working for you might be a good thing to keep in mind.
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A business degree may not give an advantage for law school admission but the value could be: 1) having a strong business background is helpful for certain types of law practices and 2) a b-school degree could help with job opportunities if the OP chooses to either work prior to applying to law school or ultimately decides against law school.
But most importantly I hope the OP is simply interested in the b-school coursework – that was the case for my S (not my D LOL).
But this is not the OPs question.
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Yes, if the OP actually wants to do an undergrad business program for its own sake, that is fine too. And I wasn’t suggesting changing yet.
But from what I have gathered, some people really get into it, and some end up not loving it. I’d just like the OP to understand they are not trapped at that point, they would still be able to do something else, and they would be doing whatever that is at an excellent university. And of course people who go to Notre Dame and Penn with other majors are also going to have lots of employmeny opportunities too.
The reason this feels relevant to me is that I think sometimes when people are talking with concern about the culture/competitiveness at Wharton, what they are concerned about would not necessarily apply (or not nearly as much) to CAS (or Nursing or SEAS, but probably the OP would be transferring to CAS). Again, I also think some people start at Wharton and really feed off the energy there. But if that isn’t what happens for the OP, again they would have options at that point.
None of which is to imply Notre Dame would not provide the same sort of options. The OP would not be committed to Mendoza either. But it does feel to me like the OP is more concerned about being trapped in something unsuitable at Penn specifically.
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Hopefully a visit will clarify things.
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At both school it would be easier to switch out of business into either Arts and Letters or the College than into Business.
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Maybe in a few circumstances, but generally it is a liability. Familiarity with terms & concepts that a competent lawyer can learn in a few hours.
Accounting & tax law for an M&A attorney okay, but not necessary; and to a far lesser extent finance & securities/capital markets (but this just gives one a few days advantage at most).
FWIW Many Biglaw firms do not even give a bonus for an MBA/JD signee; some do as a courtesy, but not as added value.
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OP asked about Mendoza vs Wharton.
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In the context of interest in attending law school.
Yep, and in fact I think technically at Notre Dame you are just preapproved for Mendoza if you want it, so don’t even have to transfer out:
https://admissions.nd.edu/apply/resources-for/business-major-policy/
But in any event, if the OP is still thinking maybe Business, then starting that way makes sense, with the understanding there is unlikely to be a significant barrier to changing their mind.
I guess part of my point is they may choose to START at Wharton, or START at ND with pre-approval at Mendoza, but the truth is they really choosing between the option to do Mendoza OR something else at Notre Dame, or the option to finish at Wharton OR do something else at Penn.
And understanding those options exist seems to me like a relevant part of deciding where to start.
Even so, I’d probably be less focused on this issue, except for the fact the OP has mentioned law school as a possible ambition, and also concerns about culture, such that fully understanding these options exist might be useful when deciding where to start.
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OP: If you plan to study business, U Penn Wharton is the easy answer.
I’m Catholic & know many Catholics who have attended Notre Dame; for those individuals, Notre Dame was always the first choice school. Always. That is not you.
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Many of the top securities lawyers in the country had zero business training before law school. Many of the top white collar crime lawyers (prosecutors AND those who defend those accused of a crime) had zero business training before law school.
Anyone who thinks majoring in business is good prep for law school should first look at the required courses in business (operations management, supply chain, organizational behavior) and parse how they might be helpful for a lawyer. And THEN wade through the syllabus for Civil procedure, constitutional law, etc. and try to figure out why someone would study business as a prep for that- unless they were passionately interested in business.
The one course that works for both- business ethics. Some undergrad programs require it- all law schools have various versions of “professional standards and ethics”. But that’s the overlap. Don’t defraud your client or customer. Don’t lie in court. Don’t fudge your numbers because eventually you’ll get caught. Lather, rinse, repeat.
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The OP asked opinions about Wharton v Mendoza. The OP did NOT ask for a debate about the value of an undergrad business education.
It is reasonable to believe that this extremely bright and motivated student made a conscious and informed choice to study business AND will have the presence of mind shift if business turns out to not be an area of interest.
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There are many majors that feed into law schools - poli sci, philosophy psych, the humanities. Business is not the most common feeder track.
South Bend is not the most happening place on Earth, but students stick together and the Irish spirit is extremely strong. The same cannot be said of Penn/Wharton, as students tend to spread out after classes. Competition is fierce within the student body (i.e. imagine hundreds of students vying for the same internship spots in high finance and consulting – there is a TON of cannibalism and even backstabbing). An ND diploma will likely get you anywhere you want – a top law school, or any prestigious jobs you can think of.
If you do not mind sharing, how strong were your stats and how direct were you with each school that your end goal was law? Congratulations Again!
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Mendoza infamously has the ‘Mendoza curve’ which wrecks your GPA compared to other business schools.
It is not a problem for recruiting because the school’s career services center has connections to companies and informs them of the policy. So a 3.5 at Mendoza is considered equivalent to 3.7 at other places.
However, law schools take the raw GPA as face value, due to nationwide GPA standardization by the LSAC. So it would be a disadvantage.
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To add on, this is also why
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My stats were decent. 35 ACT, 3.98 UW GPA (~4.7 weighted? No official calculation), 15 APs, no IB/Honors offered. Mostly social justice ECs, a few business ECs but no big awards or recognition. Top 10% of my class (unweighted ranking system, I don’t think this was taken into consideration). I’m from the midwest. I wasn’t direct with either option here that law school was the goal, they were oriented towards business and making a positive impact (which I’d like to do too, I’m just leaning more towards law at the moment). I had some national and state recognition for public speaking but nothing exceptional
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