Miami University Farmer VS. Indiana University Kelley

<p>My daughter's final college decision is coming down to the wire! She plans to major in Business with a focus on Legal Studies, with the ultimate goal to attend law school. She has been accepted to both IU (direct admit into Kelley and the Honors program) and Miami Univiersity (Honors program also). The decision had come down to finances. We live in Ohio, therefore would have to pay the OOS tuition at IU. She was awarded a total of $11K per year (this does not include the Stafford loan amounts that she can also take out). She also has other scholarship awards and a decent college fund, but we (her parents) would still have to borrow at least $30K total for her to attend 4 years at IU. </p>

<p>At Miami she has been awarded $6500, but since the cost would be in-state we could probably swing the cost here with very little debt. She also is a National Merit Finalist but was not convinced that any of the colleges where she could get the full ride had the best business schools. I am looking for anyone's input/opinion about IU vs MU, specifically the business schools. I know they are both ranked high, but would it make that much of a difference where she attends for her undergrad degree? She loves both campuses for different reasons, so this has been a tremendously difficult decision. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!</p>

<p>I gave a long answer to this, and the message did not post. I’ll try again.</p>

<p>MomtoShelby, we are your direct opposite. We have a son…good student, NMS, good athlete. Direct Admit Kelley and Farmer Honors. Last year you could not be a direct admit to Kelley Honors, so that was a disadvantage. More money at IU as in state.
My son fell in LOVE with MU. Lots of reasons. He did not want to go to school with all his HS friends. There were several kids from his HS going to Miami, but not so many that he would continue to run with his same pack. He liked the size of Miami. He liked the more conservative culture and the sense of tradition at Miami. </p>

<p>WE felt like IU was a bit out of control. We are from a pretty affluent Indiana community and found a lot of the kids from this area were pretty involved in a drug and alcohol culture at IU that just isn’t the same at Miami. After Miami had a couple of very embarassing public incidents, they made a very conscious effort to clean up their image. There are cops on Segways EVERYwhere. They publish every embarassing student event in the school paper. Although there is plenty of alcohol on campus, the drug culture is almost nonexistent. And where it exists, it is cleaned up. A very prestigious frat on campus was just shut down. They do not mess around.</p>

<p>I’m not going to tell you that every kid at IU is a druggie. Obviously that’s not true. But it’s a more liberal school. And drugs are just not looked on as negatively there.</p>

<p>If your daughter is mature, she may do fine in the bigger dorms and looser culture at IU. My son was young and uncomfortable and concerned about peer pressure.
At Miami he has excelled. The classes have been very small in the Honors program. He works out a lot at the rec center - which is really good for him. He loves the China Business program and will spend 6 months in China.</p>

<p>IU is a good school and I know many very proud IU alums. I am one :slight_smile:
But Miami fit my son better, making the extra expenditure worth it to us.
Even my husband, who did not want to spend the money now says we did a very good thing for OUR kid.</p>

<p>You know your daughter. You’ll need to do the same for her.
Good Luck!</p>

<p>Since I am an incoming freshman at Miami, I may be a little biased but based on what you listed for your finances, I see Miami as the smartest choice. Since Indiana and Miami are both amazing schools and she loved BOTH campuses, I don’t see why you would spend all the extra money on Indiana. Since she didn’t seem to have a clear preference while visiting, I would stick with the cheaper choice because it will make things easier in the future. The Farmer School of Business and the Honors Program both have excellent reputations and if I were a parent, I would not want to spend all the extra money on Indiana.
Good luck with your decision and I hope to see your daughter in the fall!</p>

You D. might get more once she let Miami know her plan to attend. It was the case with my D. We are in-state and D. got close to 10 various Merit awards that covered her whole tuition and later she got even more when she applied to Returning Students Merit awards at the end of her freshman year. I do not want to change youe mind and I am not familiar with other school at all. Having UG for free was a a very good thing for my D. who is currently at very expensive private Med. School after graduating from Miami last May. BTW, she loved it there, still visits very often, very happy choosing Miami for her UG, also was great prep. for Med. School.</p>

<p>If your daughter is considering law school, Miami University and the Farmer School of Business have one of the best mock trial programs in the country and truly preprare undergraduate students for law school and a career in this area. Miami Mockhawks just took 1st and 2nd place in the qualifying national tournament and also 4th in the nation for the mock trial program out of 230 schools nationwide. </p>

<p>Please see the links below for more information about Miami’s Mock Trial program. Truly one of the best and it has been around for 33-years and led by Professor Daniel Herron at the Farmer School of Business. </p>

<p>[Miami</a> University Mock Trial](<a href=“]Miami”></p>

<p>Professor Dan Herron
Business Legal Studies Professor
<a href=“”></a></p>

<p>Good luck on your decision! I am sure you will choose the right school for you at the end of the day. All the best!</p>

<p>debrockman- You are making some assumptions about IU without backing it up with any facts. Before you throw a school under the bus, please include some evidence of this supposed “drug” culture at IU. </p>

<p>The Sigma Chi fraternity at Miami was shut down because: The fraternity concluded that there had been “illegal and continual drug usage and possible distribution of drugs” from the fraternity house. The chapter also was found to be “fostering a thirst to create and cause physical and mental harm to others,” said the letter from Michal A. Greenberg, grand pro consul of the international fraternity.</p>

<p>(quote from Canton Rep article from the Associated Press, April 10, 2012)</p>

<p>I am glad your son is happy at Miami but there is no need to bash another school with unproven accusations. Truth be told, there are drugs at every school. It is up to the student to make good decisions.</p>

<p>Did I not say that students are ultimately responsible? I did. But the fact is this. I went to IU. I had a daughter at IU. My son has lots and lots of friends at IU. Miami has a much much much smaller drug presence than IU.</p>

<p>I knew that this would rile IU parents. That really is not the issue. IU has THE HIGHEST incidence in drug arrests in the Big 10. Look it up. They also have a much higher drop out rate and a much lower 4 year graduation rate. Look it up.</p>

<p>Sigma Chi WAS thrown off campus at MU. Miami does NOT tolerate either drugs or hazing. Keep this in mind. Sigma Chi was an Alpha chapter and very influential at Miami, as it is at many schools. The administration at the school did not care. They are out. The administration at MU will NOT look the other way. The residence halls are small and heavily staffed. </p>

<p>Some kids can handle the bigger, looser IU environment. Clearly many don’t.</p>

<p>Your recollection of the Sigma Chi event seems to differ from the Miami Student newspaper. Apparently they don’t call debrockman for their information. If you read the link below you will see that Sigma Chi pulled the Miami chapter, not the Miami University administration.</p>

<p>[Sigma</a> Chi loses charter - News - The Miami Student](<a href=“]Sigma”></p>

<p>Drug arrests, drop out rate and 4 year graduation rate were not even a blip on the radar when our two sons selected a college. I guess I should hold it against my husband and older son that they took longer than 4 years to graduate college. Sometimes when you change your major that happens. Some students find that they are not cut out for college. But, kudos to them for giving it a go. There are many successful people that never graduated from college. If a student chooses to use drugs and gets arrested, blame lies with them, not the college that they choose. I’m not sure why you are so focused on drugs unless you have past experience or expect a future bad experience.</p>

<p>But your arguments against IU appear to not have influenced MomtoShelby. She announced on the IU forum that her daughter will be going to IU:).</p>

<p>MomtoShelby can be very happy. Kids who are very mature can do very well at IU. I know some amazing kids graduating and heading to law school, medical school and other great careers. My niece is there currently doing a master’s in public health, my nephew, at the law school. You can do whatever you want at IU. My son sort of misses “big school” athletics. I have a Kelley undergrad, a master’s and a great career thanks to my great education.</p>

<p>But there is a very dark side to IU that can blindside you if you aren’t aware of it.</p>

<p>My daughter was in a terrible dorm. The kids drank all week and were throwing up and trashing hallways. When we would visit on a Sunday morning, all the hallways were filled with used beer cups, trash, occasional vomit, and there would be profanity all over the hall mirrors. She would call and complain to me about kids being drunk and crashing into her dorm and yelling in the hallways until 4 in the morning. I called to complain…they moved her to another (terrible) floor. They did nothing to stop the activity.</p>

<p>This was not a nerdy kid. She had been a cheerleader, honors student type of kid. But she could not study in her dorm…or sleep for that matter.</p>

<p>In fairness, my daughter was in Briscoe. Known for many years to be IU’s worst dorm. My son is in an honors dorm at Miami. The one pothead in his dorm at MU says MU is too square. He’s going to IU next year. </p>

<p>Four kids I know personally from our blue ribbon HS have turned into hard drug users at IU. Another arrest last week. Small sample from a 30+ thousand student school to be sure. But Hamilton County, Indiana, is very affluent and somehow those affluent kids from good homes, who were good students at top schools are finding a heroin culture. Do not underestimate this at IU. We’re not talking pot. We are talking heroin. And fentanyl. And my daughter says it is was surprisingly available. Lauren Spierer was somehow involved in it as well, most people believe.</p>

<p>And then there are the other kids at IU. I know so many who are just enjoying great classes, a beautiful campus, great athletics and an occasional party. More kids are in this group, but IU does very little to control their dorms. I am on a committee working with admin at this moment - because THEY know it’s a problem…but it is a very liberal place…and lots of people in admin just feel that kids should be free spirits.</p>

<p>Regarding Sigma Chi at MU…again…Alpha house for Sigma Chi. Big tradition. There was a 5 pound coke bust. Richest frat on campus. Cops caught them…turned it over to admin. ADMIN turned it over to the national. THAT was when the national did something. You somehow think that the national was who turned them in? They’re not in Oxford. Nope. After MU had their embarassment with “girls gone wild” in the sorority houses, they went on a mission to repair their image. And this Sigma Chi episode was part of it. If you think that the richer frats at IU don’t have similar problems, I’d like to sell you some land. They do. I can show you some pictures and video. It’s appalling.
The difference…Miami is dealing with them. My experience with admin at IU has been that they want to find a way to pretend they don’t exist. They point to awareness programs and act like that is the answer. Folks, you need enough RA’s. You need RA’s to enforce policy. My son has three RA’s on one floor. You need police who actually DO something.</p>

<p>At Miami, they will embarass the heck out of you if you are out of control. They will publish your story in the student paper. Read the Miami student paper. See for yourself. The ultimate campus shame is seeing your name and “story” in the paper. My son says that although the kids party, there is a changing culture where if you get out of control you are not cool. </p>

<p>Interesting you should in one breath say I have no facts and then blow off the cold hard facts. IU has the highest drug arrest rate in the Big Ten. A much lower 4 year grad rate than MU. And that is meaningless to you. Those are the facts. Miami also has a higher job placement rate and a higher starting salary. More facts. You didn’t LOOK at those things? Maybe it’s the Kelley grad in me…and we were #2 when I graduated. I look at the numbers…and then I look at the individual kids. Too many of our local IU kids are not doing well. Very proud of the very mature ones who are excelling. Most of those kids lived in honors dorms or were part of some program (like cheerleading or a sport). I was not willing to take the risk. My daughter came home (voluntarily) and is going to IUPUI, living in an apartment - premed - 4.0…son, thriving in an honors dorm at MU. </p>

<p>It was not an easy decision as an IU alum, to pay an extra 10K to send my kid to an Ohio state school. But after careful financial analysis. That’s where he is.</p>

<p>BTW…I don’t appreciate the insinuation that I am a drug user. I do not, and have never, used drugs. And my physician husband, with his license to prescribe narcotics, takes issue with your insinuation, as well. You might want to think before you make snide comments.</p>

<p>The fact is that person can be very happy at either school, because college life of each person depends much more on this particular student than particular school. The discussion is almost silly in this respect. If both schools are of absolutely equal value at the time of making decision than flipping the coin will produce as good result as listenning to others’ opinions, since everybody had a different experience at different places surrounded by different crowds, involving themselves in different activities…the list can go on and on…</p>

<p>OP, if I were you, I’d encourage her to go to Miami. (Full disclosure, I’m a Miami alum - more about that below.) It sounds like she would be happy at either place. I don’t think the relative rankings of the business schools will matter at all in regard to law school admissions. I think it’s reasonable to have costs be a driver here, since law school is pretty expensive.</p>

<p>I went to Miami eons ago, and know kids there now too. Miami, just like any other school, certainly has its fair share of drug use. I truly believe that is the case on just about any campus, and would not advise that you let anecdotal evidence about this at either school sway you. One thing I would suggest you think about is the Greek scene. It’s pretty big at both schools. I think if your daughter is interested in that, then I think the process is a bit rougher at IU, because the girls live in sorority houses there, so the open slots for new girls is more limited. This is not to say that it can’t be a rough experience at Miami, because it definitely can be.</p>

<p>^I am for sorority at Miami. D. really enjoyed it, despite the fact that she did not plan to be in one and there were only 2 pre-meds in her sorority, as sorority is time consuming if you participate. Again, it ws one experience that my D. decided to get involved with much results than anticipated including unforgettable trip to National in Miami (Florida, of course). Still in close contact with some of her sorority sisters. No, they did not live in one house, but D. ended up living with sorority sisters in her apartment in College Suits.</p>

<p>Thanks to everyone for their input and opinions! We made a final visit to IU this past Tuesday, and my daughter has made her decision to attend. I could just tell that this was the campus that she wanted! We met with several wonderful people in the scholarships office and business college and feel 100% confident with her decision. I truly believe that she would have had a successful college experience at EITHER college as both have top notch reputations. </p>

<p>And, yes, I know many of you were of the thought that the finances made this a “no brainer”, however, my daughter is an only child, therefore we only have her to think about and no younger siblings. I’m willing to make the financial sacrifices that will be needed, including going back to work full-time (already have a job secured). </p>

<p>Again, thanks for the input!</p>

<p>^Congrats on getting a job. This is not a sacrifice, you will find it very rewarding, exciting. I am glad that both of us are working with empty house. There is nothing else to do. The job is the biggest entertainment. It will be much easier for you to deal with empty house because of your job! As for me, I had to find a new activity for after work, even full time job did not fill all time. I am sure you D. will be very happy, as you let her to decide, which is the best!</p>

<p>I am a proud Sigma Chi, although not a Miami Sigma Chi. There was a bad crew at Alpha Chapter that needed to be dealt with. It pains me to say this because of Sigma Chi’s rich history at Miami, but it’s best to wait for all the current Sigs to graduate and start anew 4-5 years from now. There needs to be a zero tolerance policy at Miami Sigma Chi. One strike and you’re out…one hint of mary jane at the house and you’re gone. One run-in with the police, and you’re gone. I think they’ve let too many improprieties slide, and suddenly the inmates are running the asylum. It’s sad because I’m sure 80% of the Sigs were good guys, but the other 20% were running the show on the weekends and getting everybody in trouble.</p>

<p>Drugs are on every campus just as they are at every high school. Entering the drug culture will be kid-dependent. If they want to induldge, they will find it whether they’re at IU, Miami or Liberty University. If you’ve raised your kids right, and they don’t want to indulge, then you have to faith that they’ll be okay. However, it can be situation-specific, too, in the sense that if a lot of trouble makers from your high school are attending the same college, it might be time to send Junior somewhere else…for a fresh start.</p>

<p>If I am an Ohio resident with a finite amount of money to spend on college with a kid who wants to enter law-school someday, I would undoubtedly encourage them to attend Miami.</p>

<p>As an IU alum, who had a student at IU in the past couple of years, from Hamilton County, Indiana, IU has a big problem with drugs. And to pretend it doesn’t exist is moronic. We are not talking MJ. We are talking heroin. This is no joke. I’m not saying it is rampant. But it is also NOT insignificant. The MUCH more liberal campus environment in Bloomington is NOTHING like Oxford. Kids DRINK in Oxford. Kids are taught to not be idiots in Oxford. If you act like an idiot and embarass the school, they will embarass you in the school paper. It is actually pretty darn effective. The Oxford police are everywhere. They are on segways…on foot…in cars. The environments are NOTHING alike. I know a lot of kids who have done fine at IU. But if your kid is not the mature, responsible, strongly able to make good personal choices kind of kid, I would not send a kid there. Miami has a higher return rate, a higher graduation rate, and their graduates earn higher salaries. It is what it is. Do I LIKE that? No. It costs me about 10k a year to have to send my kid out of Indiana. But it is what it is.</p>

<p>Full disclosure: My husband was totally against giving up a direct admit big scholarship to IU Kelley…He is the first to admit…best money he every spent.</p>

<p>Debrockman, it sounds like you or your family really had a terrible experience at IU. I would just say that not everyone has that experience. Good students can live on honors floors in their dorms and I would recommend the Kelley LLC, which has ZERO tolerance for drugs and alcohol in their halls (in McNutt). Also, I know for a fact that Briscoe, post-$40million renovation, is a completely different experience than it’s previous status as a party dorm. </p>

<p>I’m from the New York area and I’d say a degree from IU Kelley carries a lot more weight than Miami.</p>

<p>I’m a hiring manager in the midwest. Nobody on our recruiting team would agree with you.</p>

<p>I’d like to give a little more detail on why I say what I say.

  1. Miami University is MUCH smaller than IU and frankly, the teachers interact on a daily basis much more than they do at IU…largely because it is NOT a research U. This “hurts” Miami’s “reputation”. Their professors are not as well known. They are teachers. Not book writers or researchers. This is exactly why Miami is ranked so highly as a teaching university. That is their mission. I was in Oxford on Monday with my son and another student, having dinner with an Econ prof my son admires.
  2. Miami has one of the highest graduation rates in the country…particularly in 4 years. They are so confident that they offer a guarantee.
  3. Miami has one of the highest starting salary averages of any state university. Their 10 year salaries are astonishing.
  4. The acceptance rates to top ranked professional schools are extremely high. Much higher than IUs.</p>

<p>If you’d like to see some of these comparison statistics relative to IU, I’d be happy to provide them. IU people usually don’t want to see them. But here is the salary data:
[Top</a> Midwestern Colleges By Salary Potential](<a href=“]Top”></p>

<p>Here is the graduation data: [Top</a> 25 State Universities for Graduating on Time - CBS News](<a href=“]Top”></p>

<p>When I tell you that as a hiring manager (I’m actually an HR Director for a large manufacturing firm) we like Miami grads…it’s largely because their kids almost universally are well-spoken, clean cut, confident. On average, they really do stand out. I sent my son there after seeing that for a decade of hiring Business grads.</p>

<p>All that said, IU is a good school. It is easier to fall through the cracks there. Personally, when I see a kid who excelled at IU, I want to talk to that kid. It is a kid who can handle distractions. I would say the same about all the super-sized U’s…MSU, OSU, etc. Miami is not that school. It is half the size of IU, and it is in the middle of nowhere. There are fewer distractions.</p>