Contrary to popular belief, this (in most states, at least) isn’t an illegal question. However, it’s generally illegal to base hiring decisions on such information, and if the hirer raised the issue, it becomes incredibly difficult to prove that it played no role if the job candidate alleges it did.
311+312:
Part of the reason I left my previous institution for my current one was the way they absolutely botched my paternity leave, and then—to make it worse—people in the dean’s office telling me (oddly, never in writing…) that I’d have to show an extra year’s worth of research productivity for my tenure file, even though under my contract the year I took paternity leave was supposed to completely pause the tenure clock, because I was “off work doing nothing else” while being the full-time caregiver for a toddler and a newborn. There were a lot of straws, but that’s the one that broke the camel’s back.
That’s on the macroaggressive side of things, though, I think. (The microaggressive bit was, once people realized I might leave, being reminded about how tight the academic job market was.)
Interesting discussion. What is missing from this is that a micro aggression also often includes an assumption. So “Have you been to Chicago?” Is not one. But “I bet you haven’t been to Chicago.” may be one. Telling a black person she is articulate reveals your presumption that she wouldn’t be. We had a Chinese American in my dorm decades ago. Her family owned a stakehouse but each time she said that they owned a restaurant everyone assumed to her anger that it was a Chinese restaurant. So my contribution to this discussion is to stop assuming and engage in real discovery of the other person.
“Telling a black person she is articulate reveals your presumption that she wouldn’t be.”
Possibly, but maybe the person is actually exceptionally articulate in a way that is evident to all. That is, is there a difference between making that sort of comment to a person of color who is average in their articulation vs telling that to someone who is an exceptional speaker?
Is it micro-aggression to comment on a girl being good a math because that presumes she wouldn’t be. How do we change that perception if we don’t notice and support the girls who are good at math?
I agree with Katlia that there are great women bosses and terrible women bosses, just as there are men. There are male bosses who will mentor women and female bosses who will do the same. There are also women bosses who treat men badly. And yes there are women who do not like having other women work for them. But I think this is not typical.
I still think most men, except perhaps those in certain fields or with good job security, are not taking much paternity leave. Certainly not months of it. Men may ASK about this as a benefit, but when it comes time to take it, don’t due to financial concerns (most leave is unpaid) and worry about their jobs.
“Was it a “Nice hair!” type of comment or something more along the lines of “You must work out…”? (or more aggressive than that?)”
It was something in which I said something about figures (as in - numbers) and he said something about “I sure like your figure!”). Something along those lines. I just smiled and ignored it. We were fine.
Funniest HR-type story I was involved in: Business trip with 3 people: B (male), G (male), E (female). G was my direct report. G was known to enjoy the booze a bit too much. Anyway, they go to dinner, B is driving, E is in the front seat giving B directions, G is in the back seat. B gets lost. G pipes up from the back, a little sloshed, “Women can’t navigate for s!” Now, I would have rolled my eyes at G, told him to pipe down and moved on. E instead got extremely offended, took it to her boss (my peer) who took it to HR and it became one of these freakin’ nightmare scenarios where everyone had to go for counseling and apologize to one another (and G had to confront his drinking, which wasn’t such a bad thing). But really - it could have been dealt with with an eyeroll from E. It is still a running joke when my husband and I are going some place and if I direct him to make a turn that turns out to be wrong – “what did I expect, women can’t navigate for s.” It’s FUNNY. People need to get a sense of humor, too - that’s far more empowering than being offended by everything.
@Pizzagirl, I agree that people need to get a sense of humor. Early in my career, there was a very nice man who was one of the advertising salespeople. (Salespeople, my patootie. They were all men.) He liked to flirt with me, and one day he said, “Ya’ know, I’m married and I don’t cheat. But if I cheated, I’d wanna cheat with you!” I burst out laughing. I was flattered and he was being friendly.
However, too often people – mainly women, but not always – are uncomfortable calling out bad behavior. So we ignore it, or try to laugh it off, or tell ourselves it didn’t really mean anything, and so the bad behavior continues, remains the norm, and women continue to be marginalized.
There’s a difference between a compliment, flattery etc and something designed to make me feel uncomfortable or put-down. I can’t describe it but I know it when I hear it.
People often mistake collegial, inclusive jibes as the opposite. Making fun of someone, pointing out obvious issues - physical attributes included - are often a way of bringing a person into your circle. This can be an issue for men because men often relate in exactly that way: the more comfortable you feel with a guy, the more you poke at him. It isn’t bullying, which is negative and intended to identify this guy or that as not like us, not one of us. A lot of the HR training I’ve seen is more like translating guy behavior into the culture of women, into the culture of a minority who is very likely to take what you say as negative because he/she expects that you mean something bad. That’s my take: lots of translations issues because, as the story of the Tower of Babel makes clear, God won’t countenance a single language for all humankind.
This is a hard one—especially given the research that finds (to simplify somewhat) that telling girls they’re just as good at math as boys immediately before a math test decreases those girls’ scores.
@katliamom - Not stereotyping. Speaking about MY experiences in MY line of work and the companies I worked for for 25+ years. I’d give specific examples but I prefer not to go into personal detail. And yes, it isn’t inclusive of all men. Several were "odd man out’ if they didn’t fit a certain mold (golf playing alpha males, the BSD mentality - think Michael Lewis’ Liar’s Poker), but there are definitely clubby bunches of guys who circle the wagons for each other.
YMMV. Glad you found yourself in a more supportive atmosphere.
I have received some compliments from men over the years (not many these days, ha ha) that were nice and I just said thank you. But I was sexually harassed in my first finance job and believe me it was different.
I’m never going to catch up on this thread, but I just read the most beautiful obituary of legendary New York Yankee Yogi Berra (who died early this morning), and part of it really struck me as worth sharing here:
Students today should study Berra!
But if somebody is an exceptional speaker, are you really going to praise them by saying they are “articulate?” That seems very odd to me. To me, it’s a term that is most likely to be used in reference to a person you wouldn’t expect to be articulate, like a small child, or perhaps an uneducated person. It’s kind of like telling an older person that he or she is “well-preserved.”
Ah Yogi, so many microagressions to put up with, yet so little complaining.
As an older person, I’ll take that compliment!
We compliment each other for a wide variety of reasons. Here are four that are common:
- To make each other feel good/better
Tom: I lost! Egads!
Sally: You did so well though! If you keep it up, you’ll win the next one, no problem!
- Because we are truly impressed
Sally hands Tom the birthday gift of his dreams. He opens it.
Tom: Sally, thank you so much! You are so awesome! This is perfect!
- Out of spite, sarcastically
Tom drops the pot roast. It splatters onto the floor, ruined.
Sally: Way to go, Tom! Who needs dinner anyway?!
- Arbitrarily/Pressured -- when we feel we must say something and we want to keep it positive.
Sally has written a poem for Tom. Tom doesn’t much care for poetry. She has just finished reading it to him.
Sally: What do you think, Tom?
Tom: It’s… great! Thanks so much! You’re so thoughtful!
2 is a true compliment -- when we are truly impressed.
Sometimes that comes with a dash of surprise: we didn’t expect that level of performance. Some might read microaggression into the “surprised” element of that. But come on – it is still a compliment, and an honestly sourced one at that (the truest kind). Maybe complimentees should be a bit more appreciative and a bit less suspicious of motive. If they are going to teach that particular microaggression lesson, they should do so kindly.
If, on the other hand, a complimenter is intentionally trying to bring someone down with a “compliment” – clearly hateful or sarcastic – obviously that should be frowned upon. That’s obviously not a compliment at all.
I am not sure I understand the idea of an inclusive, collegial jibe especially in the workplace and to someone who is not part of the inclusive majority. To me it looks like at least microaggression or possibly mini-aggression (mini>>micro) that I am supposed to laugh at and accept. HR training is definitely advised. If you want to pick on the short guy on your bb-team and think he will still be your friend afterwards, go to it, but on your own time and not on a co-ed league related to work.
I actually also don’t want physical attributes commented on by anyone other than a date, since I am a woman and they (plural) are men and I don’t particularly see how this is going to be pleasant for me. It’s just awkward that they are checking me out, go to a bar or something after work and do that.
Sorry to break up the guy chat… and I work well with many guys in predominantly male field.
Honestly, HR training has been very good at improving my day to day life, removing the girlie posters from machine shops, stopping the weird comments, etc. If anyone feels that it is wasting their time or that is just some man-hating, mars vs venus type thing, attend that class 2 or 3 times. Maybe think how you would feel if a bunch of women managers started inclusive, collegial jive with you.
gibe
jīb/Submit
noun
plural noun: jibes
1.
an insulting or mocking remark; a taunt.
“a gibe at his old rivals”
synonyms: snide remark, cutting remark, taunt, sneer, jeer, insult, barb; More
verb
3rd person present: jibes
1.
make insulting or mocking remarks; jeer.
“some cynics in the media might gibe”
synonyms: jeer, taunt, mock, scoff, sneer
"even when her family gibed, Angela pursued her dream of becoming an astronaut
I think one element of this is that people get tired of comments that point out how they are different from others. For example, tall people are well aware that they are tall. They may or may not have played basketball. They may get pretty tired of always hearing about how tall they are. Black people know that they are black, and those who are well-educated and who have jobs that require them to speak are well aware that they are articulate. They may well get a bit tired of hearing about it, even from well-meaning people.
Exactly.
All I can say is that people have said it to me, and I don’t think there is any particular reason why I should be expected NOT to be: I’m well-educated, I’m white, I was raised in an upper-middle class environment. Maybe because I’m female?
Now, in my case, being told that I am extremely articulate is sometimes followed by an admonition that some other people find me intimidating as a result. So maybe it is a micro-aggression after all. B-) On the other hand, compliments regarding my public speaking abilities are usually not barbed.
I think the exact same words might be a compliment when addressed to a man, and a veiled insult when addressed to a woman–things like “aggressive,” “doesn’t suffer fools gladly,” “ambitious,” etc.
Another microaggression, this one from the same CEO who called me “Honey.”
I had been asked to fly to an important meeting of all the Division VPs and give a brief presentation on what was happening with our employee benefits program – lots of changes; please explain the rationale. Of course the CEO was there; this was basically his meeting. I am five feet and no inches tall – so, I’m short. When I stood up to speak and was 30 seconds into my presentation, the CEO interrupted me and said, “VeryHappy, stand up! We can’t see you!.” Of course I was already standing up.
Ha. Ha. Ha. Not.
ETA: Of course, this CEO was an a**hole.