Everyone in my family divorced, mom, grandmothers, dad to second wife, so it is important to me to try to beat the odds. I do talk to my daughters about really spending time with a potential future spouse and his family. Parents sure can do a number on their kids, and the spouse deal with the aftermath. For my situation, my inlaws are awful, and seem to have favorites. My hubby needs constant affirmation, and its frankly quite exhausting. I’m sure its a direct result of his parents treating him like crap. I think a lot of divorces are due to things that happened to spouses in their families while growing up.
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What happened to morals, and responsibility to one’s offspring?
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Some aren’t going to like this, but until one’s social circle puts pressure on such folks, these things will continue and get worse.
If any of you have a friend/relative who isn’t supporting his/her children, do you act like nothing is wrong? Do you speak up? Do you distance yourself from the creep?
Personally, I would say something (and I have). When the person continued his lack of support, I distanced myself. In that case, the dad kept bragging how his child support would end at 18, and his child still had more than half of senior year of high school to complete. I was disgusted by his words, and let him know that not only should he continue thru HS graduation, but because he had gone to college (BS and MS), and he wanted his child to go, then he needed to continue supporting the child thru college (even if not at the same CS rate and he could pay the college directly).
I think we’ve become such “do not judge” people that those who behave badly (affairs, abandoning families, etc) end up facing little/no societal negative consequences. A little shaming might go a long way…
My parents divorced after almost 40 years of marriage when they were both in their late fifties. They were incredibly ill-suited for each other – seriously, they couldn’t have been more mis-matched if they tried. Growing up in that household was sometimes wonderful but usually a minefield. I’m sure that the main reason they stuck together was for us kids, although the reasons are undoubtedly more complex than that.
So, I understand (intellectually) why they divorced, but it was still awful for their fully-grown children. It was like the ground shifted beneath our feet. What made it even more unreal was that, to an outsider, they seemed like the perfect couple, so their divorce instigated a lot of gossip and a lot of attention in their small town.
My point is, you never really know what’s going on inside another person’s marriage, even is those “other people” are your parents. I think it was infidelity that finally destroyed my parents’ marriage, but it was pretty broken for many many years.
In regard to post #163 and financial infidelity I would be furious at my spouse if he put our assets at risk without my knowledge.
If you ask my cousin why he is divorced he will tell you it was because his wife was unfaithful but that is only part of the story. They were well-off but always spent all the money that came in. Without her knowledge he borrowed a very large sum of money to finance some hair-brained scheme. When she found out it caused a giant rift in the marriage. Then he started with the verbal abuse about how she was too stupid, etc. to understand his pie in the sky plan. With the pummeling to her self esteem she had an emotional affair with a coworker which was very briefly also physical.
Ten years later the ex-wife still is invited to family gatherings. The bully cousin was kicked to the curb. He never showed any remorse for his actions.
Some close friends have told me they didn’t try counseling because they hadn’t addressed issues years ago and things were far too broken to fix.
OTOH I worked in a male dominated field and a few of my coworkers were very candid about their reasons to pursue counseling with their SAHM wife. They wanted the extra time to hide assets, limit overtime earnings, and defer bonuses so that they would come out better financially in the divorce.
183 - probably you would have also have been upset, if your spouse revealed there was enough money to buy the dream house, unexpectedly on the market, because there was a "surprise" bank account which could provide a huge down payment. And probably also if you were gifted an amazing European vacation one Christmas out of funds you had no idea existed.
This is how their marriage worked. He surprised her and she appreciated it. Until the surprise was a bad one.
I can see both sides. And they were in their early forties, which seems so very young to me these days. They both grew up a lot. They have good lives 20 years later, just not together.
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"The wives of these strange creatures are kind of doing it all…working 1 or 2 jobs, taking care of kids’ needs, doing chores when off work, etc.
Anyone else notice this sort of growing trend?? What is going on?"
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And don’t think the kids don’t notice it. The mom basically works herself to death and dad lays on the couch all day (with a ton of lame excuses).
But which parent is the role model? The one gone all day working or the one the kid sees 24/7 doing nothing? Take a guess.
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You are so right! My SIL is a law partner, works lots of hours, and comes home and continues with child chores, home chores, etc…while her H sits in his LazyBoy watching TV or sits with his laptop playing computer chess all day. When the kids were younger, I would sit in shock to see her come home and immediately have to tackle home stuff…driving kids to events, getting dinner going, etc…while her H just continued doing what he liked best…watching TV/playing chess/surfing the internet.
Their kids are now grown (ages 32 - 22) and NONE of them work. They’ve been well-educated at some of the country’s best schools (W&M, Tulane, BU, UNC, Carleton, UIUC) for undergrad and grad. I don’t think they’ll ever support themselves. Their “role model” has been their dad who taught them to “do what they want to do, always.”
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The wives of these strange creatures are kind of doing it all…working 1 or 2 jobs, taking care of kids’ needs, doing chores when off work, etc.
Anyone else notice this sort of growing trend?? What is going on?
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@mom2collegekids Yes!!! My sister and I have discussed this many times. What is up with that? We have a few acquaintances where we have seen that happen.
My dad worked full time PLUS and maintained a garden, our cars, the yard, etc. He snoozed on Sunday after church and that was about it.
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I really think that this is happening more and more. I don’t know if it’s because boys are no longer raised to believe that they will be breadwinners out of fear that it sounds sexist? I don’t know if it’s because too many were over-indulged while growing up, so they’re willing to let someone else (wife) carry the load without any guilt?
“If you read Coming Apart by Charles Murray, his thesis is that successful families tend to share certain traits like being actively religious, having a strong work ethic, and high respect for the law, and that these traits lead to high marriage rates and more successful lives.Our district has lots of families with these traits, so one would expect the divorce to be lower than normal.”
I am always skeptical when I read things like this (and Murray in particular is someone who is viewing things from a certain viewpoint and a lot of what he writes is colored by that). Someone who is actively religious, for example, likely holds the view that a marriage is a marriage, no matter what, and can’t be broken, and the fact that they don’t divorce doesn’t necessarily mean that they have happy marriages. How much of his success is surface show and how much is it deeply loving families? How many of those people he is talking about have spouses or children who are being abused, how many of them have husbands or wives who have a secret drinking problem, how many of them are miserable people in the relationship? Murrays thesis is a bit too much for my liking like that view that 1950’s families were perfect because they were portrayed that way on tv, when if you read the journals of people who lived in a time when divorce was difficult to get and there were all these proscriptions against getting divorced, what you find out is a lot of those ‘happy marriages’ were not. There can be a big difference between low rate of divorce and happy marriages that stay together because the people want to rather than because they believe they have to stay together, whether it is for the kids, because to them marriage is a sacred covenent or ‘the law’, etc.
While I certainly believe you, I don’t know any lazy, uninvolved men like this.
175. @deb922 I also found this thread incredibly insightful and thought-provoking. It's obviously not up to me to control this thread's directions just because I started it, but I agree that discussions about what makes marriages successful (or not) are highly relevant, and I would love to hear more opinions.
Lol. By that logic, my family should’ve broken up a long time ago and my own little family is doomed.
FWIW, this has not been my experience at all growing up and watching my friends’ parents split- especially in regards to religion.
@musicprnt, actually Murray himself divorced and remarried. I think his sticking point is raising children without the formal family structure of a two parent household. I don’t necessarily agree with him as I have seen some single parents do a pretty incredible job with raising their children.
“They wanted the extra time to hide assets, limit overtime earnings, and defer bonuses so that they would come out better financially in the divorce.”
I’ve known not one but two cases of where H and W were moving to another state. Wife was left in charge of building the new house which was fine. But husband’s plan was to never move but divorce instead and leave her a state away. Still can’t fathom it.
I don’t know personally many lazy husbands either, as described in this thread. Our kids are more likely to see me fussing around the kitchen, making dinner and cleaning up, on a nightly basis than my wife. But that is because I am restless and like menial tasks at the end of the day to wind down from work, whereas my wife likes to wind down from work by watching tv or reading.
Same as @alh I believe you about the uninvolved men, but I can’t think of a single example.
@harvestmoon1:
I haven’t read the book, and while the argument about two parent households is debatable (a poor mother with no education raising kids is going to be in a different position than a well off divorced woman or husband raising kids), while having two parents around definitely has its advantages, both economically and in other regards (more attention for the kids, social skills in terms of how kids pick up social interaction, etc), Murray from what I know of him comes from the idea that two parents are better, period, and that gets hazy, not so sure just having two parents around is better in all or even many cases, depends. One of the things you can easily use to refute Murray’s hypothesis is to take a look at the stats on places like the Barma report on religion, where things like divorce rates, spousal abuse rates, child abuse rates and the like can be higher among people who proclaim themselves religious people as opposed to the general population, and if you look deeper you can see why, that those ills have little to do with religious belief and often are tied to economic and community health.
Often Murray’s kind of reason to me goes back to the myth of the good old days, when divorce was rare, and meanwhile covered up things that happened because divorce was difficult and because certain things were not just talked about, like spousal abuse (that was treated as ‘one of those things’ by law enforcement), or spousal rape (not illegal for the most part until the 1970’s), and so forth that happened "below the covers’.
Someone asked me in a discussion what I thought about saving marriages, and my answer was that probably the biggest one is that we get rid of all the old notions of marriage and rebuild it, that going into a marriage that people have to be able to define it in a way that works for them and truly understand what that is…rather than the old notions of marriage as you fall in love with someone, get married, have a family and die together. Of course, that is a lot easier said then done, if someone could build a foolproof manual for being married it would be great, but given the crap load of books claiming they know the secret to marriage, religious or otherwise, and how screwed up marriage still can be, it hasn’t happened yet. Probably the biggest one might be that couples should be getting couples counseling before they get married, rather than using it to put the pieces back together:)
Murray’s point that upper class areas he describes as Belmont in his book have marriage rates in excess of 80 percent. In contrast, lower class areas he describes as Fishtown have marriage rates less than 50 percent. To quote from a review of his book:
http://educationnext.org/belmont-and-fishtown-part-ways/
For many men, marriage and parenthood were events that forced them to grow up and become productive members of society. Norms have changed and better or worse those societal expectations are not as strong anymore.
Dr. Phil (okay, I watch daytime TV…and worse yet it’s all re-runs) says the reason for any divorce stems from failed mutual expectations (which is obviously a very broad definition).
The show was on PRE-marital counseling and trying to decide if you wanted to “sign-up” for a long haul. First your partner needs to actually KNOW your expectations. And it’s a long list.
Barring physical/emotional abuse as obvious deal breakers, his list of “compatibility” issues included: money, sex, common values, religion, geography (where to live/career choices), kids (want them? how many? ideas in parenting?), in-laws, politics plus a couple more. Potential health issues are in there–for either partner or any kids you have–what would you do?
This list is for things to discuss before you get married and I know this is a “why divorced mid-life?” thread. But the list doesn’t change really–it just gets delayed sometimes over years until reality sets in.
@deb922 When we were in couples therapy, oh, ten? years ago, one of the therapist’s recommended books was John Gottman’s “The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work”.
He’s probably best known for his prediction models, will this marriage survive?, based on interviews and observing couples interact in the apartment “lab”. He proposed four negative behavioral traits that most predict divorce.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gottman
All in all, I found the book interesting, but not all that helpful in our situation. However, I can imagine it being helpful to someone single and not yet married. You know, do I see these negative behavorial traits in myself? In the person I’m dating?
Our therapist also recommended Chapman’s “The 5 Love Languages” and I probably groaned aloud when I heard the title. Listened to that one on audio, and son of a gun, it WAS helpful.