Sorry if this is OT and will get back to the core after. I’m not usually sensitive about this sort of thing, had my great career and DH and I made it through. But:
And the bad thing about a forum, @GoNoles85, is what’s said is said, no revising the next day, no editor to raise an eyebrow, before it goes to print.
And the examination (re: sexism) some of us advovate is 2 part, at least. You say you didn’t make the divorcee feel bad. But you do think she let herself go, did rate her in this way, did engage in this sort of chat with another male, and 2, that you said it here.
Back tracking is one thing. But you said it, then and now, cuz you apparently thought it. You never said, brilliant, accomplished, or anything positive. Just pointing to a woman and making judgment based on her appearance.
It doesn’t make a difference that we all appreciate “attractiveness.” You’re still judging her based on gender expectations.
I assume you meant well in your post. I won’t go into details about our situation, but I’d like to make the point that the grey area between “happy marriage” and “unhappy marriage” is VAST.
Recognizing that divorce is costly, and recognizing that a combined income in one household yields something completely different than each of us supporting ourselves in separate households … does not equate to out of control finances, debt, or needing Dave Ramsey’s help.
These things are complicated, perhaps even more so in the grey zone. I feel certain the world is full of marriages much like ours. We have a peaceful relationship and share many of the same values. Yet one can still feel lonely and bored and yearn for something different.
We manage by living mostly separate lives (now that the kids are older). It’s the tacit compromise that emerged. Who knows what the future will bring! Maybe if we get thru this mid-life transition, we’ll be good for another 30. Maybe one of us will meet someone new & pull the divorce trigger.
Well that’s great. I didn’t sign up for that. I consider it to be constructive abandonment on the part of the husband.
It would be a whole other kettle of fish if it weren’t a choice, at least on the part of my husband. Thankfully, he knew I meant it and I am not even a little bit sorry because it gave him enough incentive to lose enough weight to solve the major problems between us AND to bring down his blood pressure to a safe level. I don’t think enabling a spouse to kill himself or to live a wretched life is a kindness and I don’t think it really honors the vows of marriage. I would feel the same way about any addiction. But everyone is different. I have a good friend who is a very serious alcoholic. She is on her third round of long-term inpatient rehab. I really don’t know what her husband is going to do this time, because the consequences of her addiction are killing him. I really don’t know what I would do in that circumstance, because I always understood (with the input from our doctor) that my husband could make small changes that would help.
Some marriages aren’t monogamous. Some couples have a don’t ask, don’t tell policy. It’s not my business.
It’s just so complicated. A SAHM friend, who never wanted to be bothered with the finances, left her husband when a huge real estate deal he was involved in went bankrupt. She figured it out when they started getting IRS notices for back taxes. She felt he had betrayed her by keeping it all secret, even the original deal which she had no idea about. It was a shock to her because his own business had nothing to do with real estate.
My husband commented that if the secret deal had worked out as planned, my friend would have been over the moon with no criticisms at all. Other folks made fortunes with similar deals in that time and place.
This is one of those situations where I think bad luck really impacted a marriage.
@mom2collegekids :
“When I see some middle-aged guy driving around in a 2-seater convertible, I admit that I immediately think, “hmmm…mid-life crisis…either cheating already or soon-to-be.” (I admit, that’s not fair since some married couples enjoy those cars, too).”
lol…in my case, if I ever have the time and funds to get another Alfa Romeo (had a 1750 convertible when I was a kid), my wife will know a)I have gone crazy and b)who I am cheating with, and it won’t be a woman , it will be the car (women generally have more sense than to drive in an Alfa, though I had it when I met my wife, but that was before she knew what they were like lol).
H has been a functional borderline alcoholic for years. I accepted a long time ago that he was going to drink, no matter what I said, no matter what I did. OTOH, he is a hard worker, a good provider, a great dad and an overall cool person. He has never embarrassed himself or me by his drinking. As long as he kept his job (he’s retired now) and stays off the road, I can deal. It’s all a matter of what you can make your peace with, and some people on this thread appear to have made their peace with a lot more.
As posters are jumping in to speculate on what makes a good marriage or not, I have to ask, have you seen people beaten down by extended unemployment or underemployment? The depression and sense of failure the unemployed person feels? The fear & disappointment the spouse feels? The despair that can creep into a home? How about couples who have a child with autism, or disability, or with a mental illness and are unable to find or finance good help? Aging sick parents?
These things are HARD, under the best of circumstances, and can suck the spark out of marriages.
@mom2collegekids Yes!!! My sister and I have discussed this many times. What is up with that? We have a few acquaintances where we have seen that happen.
My dad worked full time PLUS and maintained a garden, our cars, the yard, etc. He snoozed on Sunday after church and that was about it.
“When I see some middle-aged guy driving around in a 2-seater convertible, I admit that I immediately think, “hmmm…mid-life crisis…either cheating already or soon-to-be.” (I admit, that’s not fair since some married couples enjoy those cars, too).”
We used to have a really sporty car until we had kids–backseat wasn’t even big enough for a toddler!
So now after kids gone–we look at those cars again. If H bought one I’d be in the passenger seat for sure.
How prevalent is this opinion? I have have been driving sports car since before I met my spouse. After 30+ years of marriage and sports car ownership, no cheating.
@Midwest67 - I can absolutely speak to the experience of extended unemployment and underemployment. I’ve been laid off three times since college, the last time for 18 months at the height of the recession. And it did a number on our marriage. We’ve bounced back, but I felt very unsupported, especially when I went back to work and encountered some serious problems. I’ve let it go for the most part but I still think about it sometimes.
Sorry Midwest–I did mean well. (and I wrote it before reading the rest of the thread if that matters). Wish you the best.
As for your question about unemployment–I’ve seen a couple people take a real emotional hit after being laid off. The esteem is just sucked right out of them even though being laid off wasn’t a personal attack on them. Instead of going out and looking for another position, they just sat–like they weren’t good enough for anything else. It’s like grieving for a loved one in some ways–took time to bounce back.
Truth is, plenty of times, I daydreamed of taking the dog and the van and just leaving. No one saw more than a lucky, loving couple. And we were lucky and loving, but that doesn’t cover it all.
It’s diffucult, btw, to just point to “for better or for worse,” when some here have had to make the tough decision and have expressed that it was not frivolous.
@mom2collegekids, my late MIL stayed in bed all day, every day. I can count on one hand the number of times she left their apartment in the 20+ years I knew her. She didn’t cook, clean or parent. She was emotionally and physically abusive. Her husband was incapable of basic daily living and budgeting tasks. DH was raising his infant brother, cooking meals and holding bill collectors at bay at age 13.
To say this has affected DH’s and my marriage is an understatement. DH doesn’t know how an emotionally sound relationship or family works. All the energy goes into avoiding the next disaster. (“Disasters” with the accompanying freak-out include the recycling not going out, buying the wrong brand of horseradish, changing a lightbulb, me going from FT to PT for serious medical reasons…) When we were dating, I saw the mess he’d grown up with and was amazed that he survived, was successful and was fairly intact. Had I seen how that trauma shows up as PTSD and controlling behavior, I’d like to think I’d have said no thanks. However, the nurturing, protective side of me generally wins out and so 30+ years later I dance on eggshells trying to keep everything just so. And no, he won’t go to counseling. I do. It’s the reason I haven’t left.
He’s also morbidly obese with no inclination to change. Watched me lose 100 lbs and didn’t join in. He doesn’t exercise. Ever. Won’t go walking with me. I’ve quit asking. If dropping dead in front of him didn’t wake him up, nothing will.
That said, he has stuck around despite all my health issues. We were united on how to raise our kids and we are about 95% in synch on financial issues (hiring help with cleaning, repairs and yardwork being the major bones of contention).
I haven’t given up on this. But I’ve thought about it.
@zoosermom , I absolutely agree with you. I’m watching one of my best friends deal with her husband’s obesity and see first hand what it has done to her marriage: lack of intimacy, lack of socialization with long-time friends, extensive health problems creating financial issues, and just general unhappiness. She spent the last 10 years nagging him about the 3 cokes and a half dozen chocolate donuts for breakfast, etc. and has since given up for her own piece of mind. She is now concentrating on life insurance policies and how to best provide for herself when the time comes and he passes from one of the many ailments his weight has produced. She sat with her two college aged daughters and they commiserated with each other but all decided to let Dad spend his time as he wishes (like they have a choice?), eating himself to death. Sure, he has an eating disorder (call it a disease if you like) and can’t find the self-esteem to work through it. But, he also doesn’t regard his wife and daughters worth living for and that is very hurtful. She is not going to divorce him but she is unhappy.
I want to say that this discussion has really been eye opening, thoughtful and insightful to me.
Maybe I should make another thread. As I’ve opened up in another thread about my D and her failed relationship (and then there was the other guy who cheated on her and dumped her after her long term relationship failed) we have had many many talks about her and how she comes out of this and tries to find a person she wants to marry and have children with.
I won’t go on too much but you’ve given me a lot to think about. Whether or not my D and I talk about the specifics here, we do talk about successful marriages and unsuccessful ones a lot these days.
"The wives of these strange creatures are kind of doing it all…working 1 or 2 jobs, taking care of kids’ needs, doing chores when off work, etc.
Anyone else notice this sort of growing trend?? What is going on?"
And don’t think the kids don’t notice it. The mom basically works herself to death and dad lays on the couch all day (with a ton of lame excuses).
But which parent is the role model? The one gone all day working or the one the kid sees 24/7 dong nothing? Take a guess.
No one is saying that wedding vows should be handcuffs. And everyone has their line in the sand. No one is discounting anyone’s challenges in their marriages. Everyone has them. If my husband did everything I nagged him about, life would be good there are times when for someone’s personal safety they should clearly get out of the relationship. No doubt about that.
there are times when for someone’s personal safety they should clearly get out of the relationship. No doubt about that.