Milburn High School Hazing -- NYTimes

Parent Cafe
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<p>Punishing everyone until someone comes forward to confess or name the perps is a problem in my opinion. I would think an appeal to reason to various small groups or individuals who are likely to speak up would be worthwhile, and maybe even productive. All the kids should be taught why the behavior was out of line (and maybe the principal needs some education too.) The fact that only lip service is given to punishment shows why this type of behavior can flourish. In truth its not a mark on anyone’s record. I don’t think that making a few kids own up to suspensions would tarnish the college admissions results anyway; there will be others who just lived by the rules. </p>

<p>Money and entitlement feelings are probably two reasons that the behavior goes on, but I have met alums of this school who have told me stories of the extreme pressure that exists in the school. I personally know people who developed colitis and other illnesses seemingly as a result of the environment. If winning at any cost is the unspoken value, then of course there will be cheaters, bullies and other undesirable behavior. My personal feeling is that schools should teach us how to take it psychologically when we don’t win or get what we were gunning for. Every life has its disappointments. Of course parents should do this as well, but not all parents have the knowledge or ability to do this.</p>

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<p>To speihei:</p>

<p>I couldn’t agree more. I have two teenaged daughters in this very school. This is a highly competitive school in terms of academics and college choices. If these senior girls knew that there would be accountability and that perhaps their applications to Georgetown, Duke or wherever would reflect their behavior, this would stop immediately. And, their parents would all of a sudden stay on top of their behavior.</p>

<p>But just as important are two other points:

  1. 99.9% of the girls are hard-working and keep out of trouble. And do not harrass. They are good kids with a good value system. I know; I had a daughter who graduated a few years back. What kind of suggestion is it for a board member to make that 150+ girls (most of whom are minding their own business and just trying to complete college essays) should be punished because a handful of girls are hazing? Would she say that if her own kids were to be punished for something they had nothing to do with? What kind of lesson is that?</p>

<p>2) The people who should be giving up the names are the girls who were hazed and/or their parents. But, at the same time that they are complaining, they do not want to become “unpopular” so there is a veil of mystery. There were texts sent, I can assure you, telling these freshman to wear certain clothing. So, why wouldn’t the parent of a child who was hazed, provide the names and the proof so that the right students can be dealt with. The principal is caught between a rock and a hard place.</p>

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<p>speihei said: “Because our spineless educational bureaucrats think they’ll get fired if they take a stand. Because school boards in towns like this think it’s beneath their stature to “micromanage” what goes on in the schools.”</p>

<p>It’s not spineless to fear for your job . . . and school boards are representatives of their constituencies, so they will tend to go slow</p>

<p>here’s the driver you missed: because many parents and adults in Town do not want those kinds of harsh punishments dealt out</p>

<p>In my Town about 150 kids were caught at a drinking party in an adjacent Town by out Town’s police (called in by fellow officers to help deal with the situation) </p>

<p>Included many “upstanding” kids: scholars, sports captains, etc., who violated school policy about about alcohol and should have been suspended and dropped from their sports and ECs </p>

<p>1) Police refused to divulge names to the Superintendent
2) School Committee members never requested names
3) City Council members knew names but did not divulge
4) no meaningful pressure from parents to divulge names </p>

<p>What I learned: people will practice civil disobedience if the penalties are seen as unrealistically harsh; if the punishments were lesser there would have been more cooperation</p>

<p>so your proposed system will - hypothetically -work, but it will never be implemented all at once</p>

<p>earlier poster suggested what Principal could do “going forward”, things like:
1 - announce that this hazing will not be tolerated
2 - announce initial softer penalties (e.g., detention,community service, not suspensions) for anyone assisting with hazing (= has a list/forwards hazing texts/fails to report hazing they see
3 -follow through on theses gentler penalties
3- step up the penalties year by year</p>

<p>The important thing is to have a system that is implementable; yours is “tough on crime” but will never fly.</p>

<p>Kei</p>

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<p>SC3mama,
You make good points. As a mother at the school, are the reports that this hazing has gone on for many years; that the girls soccer team is a major source; and that many girls were pushed in hallways accurate?
I can understand the victims’ reluctance to name names–they likely fear the retaliation against them will be worse than any punishment meted out to the offenders.</p>

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<p>I can’t speak to the specifics of this year; it sounds like these girls took it too far. In the past, it’s been harmless, silly post-it notes placed on a girl’s back or maybe telling certain girls to wear a certain color shirt. It was harmless, and as my daughters’ reported, no big deal. Probably less than happens all across the country in high schools (right or wrong.) And yes, many freshman girls wanted that kind of attention to feel like a big shot. I never, ever heard about pushing or anything physical. </p>

<p>In terms of being afraid of retaliation; these girls are not gun-toting thugs. They are Prada-carrying 17-year olds. If they were identified, they would be punished. Texts and messages are on someone’s phone… And if their punishment included something they cared about (college) it would stop. If parents have no problem coordinating a media blitz, they should also have the backbone to provide specifics. They are teaching their freshman girls to cry wolf and then run and hide.</p>

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<p>I think you are right about the effectiveness of college-related punishment, but wrong about the fear of retaliation. Of course these mean girls are not gun carrying thugs and the retaliation is unlikely to result in broken bones. It is likely to be social ostracism and rumor spreading, which can result in broken friendships and egos.</p>

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<p>SC – dont worry, Drs. Miron and Brodow have made it clear they wont do anything substantive about hazing. Here is what Miron has to say about hazing, as communicated to students “At last night’s meeting Dr. Baker defined HAZING as the “culture of temporary harassment traditionally to create bonds” So he choses a definition that puts hazing in a positive light. </p>

<p>Here’s a definition of haze I found in encarta </p>

<p>"Definition: </p>

<p>persecute or torture: to persecute or torture somebody in a subordinate position, especially a first-year military academy cadet or a fraternity pledge. Many institutions have now prohibited hazing."</p>

<p>I guess that is not the MHS approach.</p>

<p>After he earlier said, some girls want to be on the slut list. This is not a person who should be principal. </p>

<p>So you have young people attending school where the administration puts hazing in a positive light. And you expect them to speak up? You’re joking right?</p>

<p>In all of their talks and prepared speechs, I heard no emphasize on begging parents and students to come forward. SC, that was a good point about texting – so why doesnt the school tell parents, please bring your kids phone in and show us any texts, or review them yourselves. Why doesnt the school ask religous leaders, please ask your members or congregants to step up and to report the actual problems? They want this to go away. So please dont worry, they have made it clear there will be no punishment of anyone, forget everyone in an attempt to get kids to cough up names.</p>

<p>Please dont blame the victims. </p>

<p>I don’t know that the parents coordinated a media blitz. Do you? Or are just making stuff up to justify your position. I suspect the reason that this has attracted so much attention is that so many parents everywhere are furious about hazing and want it stopped. And Millburn, Number 1 school in NJ (which apparently Dr. Miron and Brodow do care about) should have the resources to stop it. </p>

<p>The fact is earlier transgressions were actually encouraged – what do call giving a suspension which is not reported to colleges – I’ld call it a couple days off from school. And that the school evidently just lied on the Common Application on the suspension question. </p>

<p>Reading the comments of the administration, it seems all they care about is publicity. Maybe if they cared about integrity and the kids the media would go away.</p>

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<p>kayf, You are taking the principal’s comment completely out of context. What he said was:</p>

<p>“We’ve had girls — which is one of the bad things — obsessed that their names are on it, and girls who were upset that they didn’t make the list,” said the principal, William Miron. “It’s basically vulgar.”</p>

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<p>Roshke, so why did he have to say some girls wanted to be on the list? Please explain to me what you think the thought process there? Was it to justify not getting rid of the list? To justify the school’s lack of action. </p>

<p>SC – so you havent heard about pushing? I suggest you call the school and ask. What about spray painting the word slut on a driveway? Dont you think some people are afriad if they complain, there houses will get spray painted. And nice comment about Prada bags, just in case someone out here doesnt get it that there are many rich people in Millburn. And were some wealthy enough to get the really big Prada bag to fit spray paint? As to some Freshman wanted the attention – doesnt matter. Your trying to attack the victims again.</p>

<p>SC, I have to say, you are at least suggesting people gather electronic evidence (if it hasnt been erased yet, you’ll have to excuse me I dont know much about e-evidence). Dr. Brodow’s statements re facebook etc, was more be careful (as in don’t get caught).</p>

<p>And what action is being taken against guidance counselors who falsified secondary school reports? By omitting suspensions. Dont worry, I wont wait for a answer. But trust me, a lot of people are sending emails to colleges regarding Millburn’s policies re Secondary School Reporting.</p>

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<p>Kayf, I believe your heart is in the right place, but I actually could imagine some girls wanting to be on a “slut list” if it were a list exclusively of very pretty and popular freshmen girls–sort of like the outgoing Alpha Girls passing the baton to the new ones. Having seen that HS girls are willing to post very slutty pictures of themselves or comments on Facebook pages, yes, they would like to be on such a list.
Was the list made up of these type of girls or were more innocent girls listed?</p>

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<p>Yayaybe, you may be correct, but I submit even if that is true – </p>

<ol>
<li><p>I beleive that there were many who did not want to be on the list.</p></li>
<li><p>It is the duty of educators to educate young women why it is not a good thing to be a on a slut list. Maybe it is more difficult for men to do this, but they certainly have the resources at MHS to find people to help. So often we hear, educators deserve top dollar because of all the important issues they deal with. Well, then deal with them. Dont treat it like a joke. Suspensions that dont go on college record, or this years version, pre-start of school suspensions, which legitimately dont have to go on record (its really just missing practice, ooohh, that scares me, I get to sleep late while my teammates run laps)</p></li>
<li><p>I doubt anyone wanted their driveway spraypainted.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I agree completely. It is very bizarre that many girls think embracing the term slut is a sign of feminist strength, when it is actually demeaning themselves.</p>

<p>I also thought it was indicative that some of the defenders of the bullies noted they were “Straight A students”, as if that entitled them to abuse kids. It is a sad community that values GPA over character.</p>

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<p>Three MEN, Dr. Baker, Dr. Miron and Dr. Brodow (the school physchologist, HS principal, and superintendent) have made it clear it is OK to haze young girls. The board can either do something about it now, or let it fester. It is not going away. Sensitivity training is not enough. These are educated professionals, they dont need training, training wont help. They just dont care. To say they have tried disclipline in the past – they havent, and everyone knows.</p>

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<p>IMO, he is saying that there are girls who are obsessed that they are on this list (and view it as a negative that they are) and that there are even girls who want to be on the list (in a misguided desire to be popular) - but that it’s a bad thing in both cases. I imagine he is bringing it up in order to highlight what has been going on, which must be addressed at this point if it is to be changed.</p>

<p>I don’t agree at all that the administrators are saying that it is OK. Even the principal admits that the efforts he took this year (which were much more than they do at my school or most schools based on the past history) were apparently not enough. I’m glad that the issue has been brought to a head and will be taken more seriously as a result. I think Kei- o- lei has the right idea of how this needs to be approached now and in the future. If you come down this year with overly draconian measures as compared to other years , people will not stand for that, either. Nobody is going to give up names in the current atmosphere - they know the consequences would be comparable to a public lynching at this point.</p>

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<p>Roshke, hasnt Dr. Miron been at the school for years (even though only principal recently), so he’s known about it.</p>

<p>Every day he opens his mouth up, its more and more arrogant.</p>

<p>Now he’s quoting Dr. Baker as saying hazing is part of bonding. IMHO, that is insubordination on both of their parts. The school board has issued an edict. No hazing. For them to present it in a positive light is wrong, and bothe of them should retract their “definition” And I dont care if they got that definition from some textbook, it is not reflective of school policy.</p>

<p>What has the school done? Nothing. Suspensions before the start of school – oooh big deal. I agree no one is going to do anything because the school wont demand it. The school wont do anything until:</p>

<p>A. There is a major lawsuit.</p>

<p>B. One or more of the Ivies has issues with Millburn policy of we put whatever we want on the Secondary School Report and if it bears any relationship to reality that is just coincedence.</p>

<p>C. One of the former harassers goes on to college and causes a death or serious injury while hazing there. </p>

<p>D. One of the Board member’s kids get harrased.</p>

<p>E. All of the above.</p>

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<p>Since Dr. Miron is a MHS alum there is a possibility the hazing/sports culture was part of his experience as a student.</p>

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<p>As a parent, I understand everyone’s frustration and I do not mean to “blame” the “victims.” But do you mean there was actual vandalism at people’s homes…spraypainting slurs in driveways, etc. and still no one is providing names or filing police reports? These are criminal acts off of school property. At what point does the principal’s responsibility to oversee behavior end and the parents’ begin?</p>

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<p>SC, My understanding is that the parents did report it. I could be wrong, but I dont think the problem is entirely that parents and kids wont report it, but that they couldnt identify who did things. Hopefully things will move forward. </p>

<p>I mentioned this as you seem to take the tact that the hazing just didnt happen. I disagree with that. </p>

<p>I agree that the kids who did this, and possibly their parents, should be held accountable. But that doesnt mean the prinicipal shouldnt also. The NY Times said he was aware of how the list was generated and who it targetted. Did he contact parents ahead of time and warn them? Did he ask the coach to help put an end to it? Did he ask the coach to call parents? Did he make it clear there would be consequences? I am not saying draconian (depending on situation), but something. I do trust the NY Times, its not like blogging. If they say something erroneous, they will issue a retraction. </p>

<p>What the principal is responsible for, imho, is</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Not actively discouraging hazing, Even now, to say hazing is part of bonding is just inexcusable.</p></li>
<li><p>Not requiring last years suspensions be reported to colleges. He admitted that in the NY Times. Of coure that results in the kids regarding hazing as a joke. Maybe suspensions were excessive, but the end result was no consequences at all. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Silver, you may be correct. But that doesnt excuse some of the things that have and are happening. The Board has said they will not tolerate hazing. I dont know – are they winking when they say that? Why else would senior people say hazing is part of bonding?</p>

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<p>kayf – when did I say the hazing didn’t happen? If that is how my post was construed, I apologize. I am certain it did happen, and particularly badly this year. I just don’t understand all the anonymity with offenses this serious. And I think I suggested that if this behavior went on transcripts that went to college, it would stop immediately.</p>

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<p>SC, I apologize if I took your comments wrong, but I thought you were blaming parents for not reporting and implying it just wasnt that serious. </p>

<p>Apparently the principal did say he recieved a number of complaints where parents did identify themselves. And I can understand why parents and kids are afraid. I read the statements issued by the school and they really seem like lip service. The problem is the school has a pattern of having suspensions but not reporting them to colleges, so now they have no solution. They are not going to report to college. I agree if they had told people they would report to colleges, this might not have happened.</p>