Misogyny

<p>Reading the articles I can’t disagree with the concept of misogyny in society, but I also think this is a typical case of trying to take something very real and simplify it into a straightforward principle that of course is always true…</p>

<p>I would be the last person to say that ‘casual misogyny’ doesn’t exist, it does, and it is still prevalent enough that my observation (as a man) is that it is an issue. Men’s attitudes towards women have changed a lot in my lifetime, and laws and cultural shifts have allowed women to achieve things they never were able to before, so some of the structural misogyny is gone. A manager who showed a pattern of discriminating against women, then defended himself by saying ‘women don’t have the ability to do the job’ would find himself on the unemployment line pretty fast these days, but that said, there are still a lot of men (and women, sadly) who judge other women by how they look, assume things about them, and it is often hidden. Likewise, though ‘out and out gropers’ that you would see years ago, don’t happen, but a lot of men still will touch women, or stare at them, and think nothing of it, so it is out there. The problem is that on the surface it looks like it doesn’t exist, but it is there, and I suspect women reacting to Elliot Rodgers will tell you about it, the little things, and so forth.</p>

<p>Woman out having a drink with friends often have to face men who won’t say no, who think so much of themselves they won’t take no for an answer, and when a woman turns them down, you see the guy turn around (if with friends) and call the woman names, most of which I can’t use here</p>

<p>And it isn’t limited to nerds/geeks/whatever, that bothers me, because as another poster put it, those who think that have never been around testosterone fueled jobs like trading, investment banking, and the like. These guys, many of whom were jocks, make good money, and are quite full of themselves, they are full of all kinds of privilege from being the popular crowd, having probably gone to a top notch college, gotten recruited by an “a-list firm”, and get them out and drunk, they act like everything revolves around them. They see women as conquests, to be bought, and if a woman turns them down they are like “who the he** is she to turn me down”…talk to women who work in those fields, and they will tell you what it is like , while the “Boom Boom” rooms and such at places like Morgan Stanley are not quite as wild, a good part of the culture exists. </p>

<p>Then you have the rich nerds, the guys who make it in silicon valley/alley, and you have it doubly so in some cases, because they weren’t the popular kids, they were generally their own subculture, and now suddenly they have achieved success, they have 7 figures in the bank plus who knows how much in stock, etc, etc, and they get the same attitude as the jock/financial guys have, except even moreso, because they have a chip on their shoulder, so in some ways, they are even more prone to a**hattery IME. </p>

<p>Add to that the culture of ‘male whining’ you see from doofuses like Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the loony right, how the world has been feminized by ‘feminazis’ feeding fuel to the fire, and it is a big issue. One of the things that has fed fuel to this fire is that women are a lot more confident and self assured than they were when I was growing up, they have different expectations, and that feeds into the fire some of these clowns feel. Elliot Rodger had this idea of privilege, that being a man meant he had certain rights when it came to women, the violence was the mental illness, but the rage that triggered him to do it was fueled by misogyny. He wasn’t misogynistic because he was mentally ill, he was misogynistic because he grew up somehow learning that women were meant to be his, that he was driving a nice car, had social status of some sort, and couldn’t believe they wouldn’t play the game, the mental illness fueled how he played it out. </p>

<p>Sometimes I understand the anger in one sense, young women can be pretty cruel if someone approaches them they don’t like or look down on, but that cannot justify what goes on, and certainly not violence or acting out of any kind. BTW I do think there are issues men have that are quite real, our legal and court system, when it comes to divorces or things like spousal abuse and child custody, are still living in the 1950’s, with assumptions of parenting and being the father or mother and so forth, so I am loath to support someone saying “what do men have to complain about?”, there are some issues…but it doesn’t justify the kind of backlash I see. Put it this way, I accidentally have had a talk radio station on (they are the home station for the NY Mets) and after the shooting, I was shocked at what I heard from men, and saddened. </p>

<p>What to me is sad is that people like Elliot Rodgers or the moronic set I mentioned above, don’t simply ask themselves what would they be looking for is someone asked them out? That part of the problem is they focus on sex, as some sort of prize, instead of being something that comes later after having the fun of getting to know one another. I am no prude, but unless you are in a place where people are there to hook up for casual sex, it seems to be that is the cart before the horse…</p>

<p>Well, as someone who is familiar with the region where the California killings took place you all have to remember that hot women actually do throw themselves at creeps with fancy cars and movie connections in this town. The expectation is not all that unreasonable when you factor in his background. But, I completely agree he was mentally ill and not really relevant to a discussion about social issues. He was psychotic. What he thought or expected is really pretty meaningless… </p>

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<p>There’s some similarities between what you describe in that part of California and some parts/subset of groups in NYC. </p>

<p>It does seem that area of California does resemble the extreme subset of parts/groups in NYC and it seemed harder to escape if one doesn’t fit in or want to be part of that scene. </p>

<p>I agree that it is more difficult for some people to escape a sheep mentality, but that is not dependent on where they live.</p>

<p>One of the points of Arthur Chu’s message is that the feelings of Elliot Rodger are not all that uncommon, just the response. I’ve read PUAHate messages (I was looking for something about Neil Strauss), my son and some of his friends are active on the Bodybuilding Misc. forum, and I read through the Manifesto of Elliot Rodger. We are not talking about a infinitesimally small cross-section of boys who talk this way about women.</p>

<p>Every time one of these social Omegas snaps and uses a gun, we are quick to compartmentalize the action as “mental illness.” He was a kid with social anxiety, poor emotional self-control, and a low ability to read social cues. This is much more Eric Harris than David Berkowitz. There must be some term for a psychopath-after-the-fact diagnosis. True misogyny is more prevalent and more damaging from the frat boys buying roofies in Mexico and the boys-will-be-boys prosecutors refusing to go after rapists. The outcasts won’t be the ones shaping the future of gender relations.</p>

<p>I hate to say it, but the US is the best country in the way it treats women.</p>

<p>The US is not the best country in the way it treats its women. </p>

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<p>I got that from Nat Geo photographer and women’s rights activist Jodi Cobb - if you have better information, please share.</p>

<p>I’ll bring in some well known happenings. </p>

<p>The US does not have the BEST:
•maternity leave practices
•women health care
•economic equality between sexes</p>

<p>…so I don’t know how the US can suddenly be the BEST. Is the US one of the best? Yes. Is the the BEST? No. I’d say some Nordic country is doing a lot better. </p>

<p>A quick google search of “best countries for women” gives you a search. Of the sites that popped up you can find this BuzzFeed article which reports of the Global Gender Gap Report of 2013. </p>

<p><a href=“The Best And Worst Places To Be A Woman”>The Best And Worst Places To Be A Woman;

<p>Who’s number one? Iceland. (Figured so.)</p>

<p>Who’s twenty third? The US. </p>

<p>I hate to say it, but the US is the best country in the way it treats women.</p>

<p>Look up fetal maternal mortality rates and say that again.</p>

<p><a href=“Unlike in most other countries, U.S. maternal deaths are on the rise | MinnPost”>http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2014/05/unlike-most-other-countries-us-maternal-deaths-are-rise&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I brought that thought up with a friend of mine who had lived in Norway - she scoffed and said. “No way.” Their laws may be better, but she has a very low opinion of the treatment she received from Nordic men. I will ask another woman I know who spent some years in Sweden.</p>

<p>The “Dragon Tattoo” books were kind of an eye-opener on that.</p>

<p>I asked my Swedish friend who moved to the US not so long ago - it sounds like she might regret her decision. It is hard to judge based on personal anecdotes and photographs.</p>

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<p>Niquii - that’s the article I was thinking of when Jodi Cobb said the US treated women the best. She’s made a highly respected career of researching this, so I would assume she knows something. Nobody thought to ask her why when her conclusion was so drastically different. Personally, I was surprised.</p>

<p>EK4 - I looked at the report and it is dreadful, but we’re pretty much 31st in everything related to healthcare except cost.</p>

<p>I am not discounting Cobb’s expertise in this area, but one woman’s view is not the end all be all. </p>

<p>31st in health (and various other non-top 5 stats in various areas such education and the like) does not equate to “US is the best” to me. </p>

<p>I think the US has made strides with the way women are treated, in my lifetime it has changed a great deal. 50 years ago women still had very limited opportunities in terms of careers, and many companies would not hire women, assuming they would get married and have kids so couldn’t be ‘counted on’…and a lot of other things have changed. until about 40 years ago, if a woman was raped, it was perfectly okay in trial to ask if she had sex outside marriage (if she was single), or challenge her on what she was wearing, and likewise, you could not charge a husband with rape. Women have more authority in their lives, 50 years ago women were still kind of treated like their husbands property, things are very different today, and so forth…</p>

<p>That said I wouldn’t say the US is the best, either, there is still a lot of work to be done. Old attitudes about women can limit their ability to go into certain fields, and when it comes to policies on things like flex time, working from home and so forth, that can benefit working moms (or dads, who are supporting their wife’s career), the US is not very good (put it this way, some of the companies where the claim is they are very supportive of women, is a smoke screen, I know the companies involved, they aren’t, it is all smoke and mirrors and ‘policies’ that are ignored in the real world). There is still a strong, religious conservative, movement in this country that want women to return to ‘traditional roles’ that often gets translated into legal and cultural policies at various times and places, that doesn’t exactly help. On the one hand, we promote egalitarian ideals, but on the other, there often is the (now hidden) subtext that a women who most would consider attractive won’t have what it takes in a ‘serious’ job…</p>

<p>One of the problems with these comparisons is that the US is not monolithic, and that question also varies with where someone lives, what economic strata you are in, education levels and so forth, there isn’t one “US”…so a high powered woman executive in Silicon Valley might have a different perspective than a woman working in a store someplace in a rural area, and so forth…Scandinavia is usually held out as ‘better’ because of its progressive social policies, generous benefits, child care and so forth, but that doesn’t mean everything, the law is one thing, and how people carry out law may be two different things. A country can have all the laws on the books about prosecuting rape and sexual harassment, but if those in power don’t enforce them, they aren’t a sign of how women are treated, either, if when a woman is raped police and prosecutors don’t act to the letter of the law. Societal attitudes and more importantly the ‘hidden culture’ may be more important than what is in law. Put it this way, there are a lot of men who say the right things in public, who are all for women’s rights, who in private show that they have a lot of attitudes that betray their public statements (and being a man, I am privileged to hear and see these things). </p>

<p>I do think the US has come a long way, and compared to probably 98% of the world, attitudes towards women are light years ahead, but it doesn’t mean we are the best, and quite frankly, I don’t even know if the term is useful here, because once you proclaim something is ‘the best’, tends to make people pat themselves on the back, say ‘we are so great’, and then ignore the bad things going on. I remember reading something about the author of the “Girl with the Dragon Tattoo” books, and he made a statement, something to the effect that in Sweden that the very people who wrote the laws that supposedly protect women, that those who pushed the social policies and such, were also people who otherwise totally ignored women and their issues and assumed because they had passed such great policy there was nothing left to do, or worse, don’t realize the very systems they set up end up becoming misogynistic in how they work.</p>

<p>yes, exactly.
<a href=“#YesAllWomen in the wake of Elliot Rodger: Why it’s so hard for men to recognize misogyny.”>http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/05/_yesallwomen_in_the_wake_of_elliot_rodger_why_it_s_so_hard_for_men_to_recognize.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I think there are plenty of women who have trouble identifying such men. I remember shaking my head at the number of women I knew who were attracted to guys I knew were ultimately going to be trouble. Some become stalkers, others emotionally abused them, others are physical abusers. If you talked to any of the woman about it they got defensive and made excuses. The ability to identify misogynists is not just confined to men. </p>

<p>There is one kind of misogynist that young women rarely recognize because he seems like the opposite. This is Mr. Chivalry. The guy who pays for every date. The guy who always does the driving. The guy who opens the car door for his date and escorts her to her door at the end of the evening. The guy who always brings flowers. The guy who compliments every little thing. The non-smoker who carries a lighter so he’s ready to light a woman’s cigarette at the first sign she’s going for one.</p>

<p>There are exceptions, of course, and their numbers from culture to culture, family to family, and era to era.</p>

<p>But my advice to all young women is to consider this guy dangerous until he proves himself otherwise.</p>

<p>I was going to say, “I politely disagree.”, but I saw a word choice in there: “always” and “every”. </p>

<p>Sure, keep your eye out for a guy that never allows you to drive when your with him or pay for your meals when you’re with him…</p>

<p>good opinion piece in the WaPo… on the role that women play in doing this to themselves by treating each other very harshly.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/esther-cepeda-too-many-women-ignore-their-own-misogyny/2014/06/03/d5cd4d44-eb6d-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/esther-cepeda-too-many-women-ignore-their-own-misogyny/2014/06/03/d5cd4d44-eb6d-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;