@alh Powerful read. Thanks for sharing that NYT link.
I think it is good to remember that the Civil War was really not that long ago. My great- great grandfather fought for the North, and I have clear memories of his daughter, my great-grandmother, from when I was a little girl. My grandmother, who I knew through my late 20’s, was very close to her Civil War grandfather, and talked about him often. I’m not young, but still not quite eligible for Medicare, so in the greater scheme of things, the Civil War is fairly recent history.
So it makes sense that some people still have strong feelings of loyalty to Civil War symbols.
On the other hand,
Contrast how the US has treated the Civil War legacy of slavery with how Germany has treated the legacy of nazism. There are memorials and reminders of the Holocaust everywhere in Germany, but no overt expression of Nazism is allowed other than in museums. It really is remarkable when you consider that some people who fought for the Nazis are still alive, and that German people my age have parents who were Nazis. (And yes, I know that there are still strong threads of antisemitism in Germany.)
Still, Germany decided after WWII to keep the memory of the Holocaust very much alive, but to strongly and forcefully condemn it. That did not happen in the US after slavery was abolished. Instead, Jim Crow laws actually encouraged the overt and violent continued existence of slavery.
The statues of the confederacy and the continued use of the confederate flag are all symbols of slavery, and it is long overdue that such symbols be removed to museums.
As the token Mississippian here, I will chime in. I’ve lived here the majority of my life, but have also lived in other regions of the country and travel pretty extensively. There is racism here, but it is definitely not exclusive to Mississippi, or dare I say, any more prevalent here than in other locations.
My next door neighbors include a Supreme Court judge and the county supt of education, both of whom are black, and I consider them both good friends. Painting all, or even most, people in a state as being racist is wrong as I am sure most will agree.
As for the flag, it has been a bone of contention for years, with many different reasons for not replacing it. For years state leaders didn’t want to take the political risk of leading a charge against it.
But miraculously, things changed over the past couple of weeks. The lieutenant governor and speaker of the house, both conservative Republicans, came out in favor. Then every single college coach in the state came to the state capitol to lobby. The business leaders in the state took a stand. And even the Baptist Convention came out in favor. And of course, the star football player at my alma mater made a very public appeal. (Why Faith Hill is even mentioned in this story is somewhat baffling to me, btw).
Both houses passed a very difficult 2/3 majority procedural vote yesterday to replace the flag. ( This 2/3 vote was made necessary because the governor refused to take a stand and a rules change was necessary to even take up the amendment). The actual vote to change requires only a simple majority and will be taken soon.
To which I, and MOST everyone I know, say about time and how wonderful that something good has happened in 2020.
I think Msj and camath are spot on. The slavery is an awful and insidious legacy of our country But it is our history and part of our legacy and that cannot be changed.
I am from Texas which, though is not the Deep South, has its roots in southern history. As such, I am proud of my heritage and values too. But I certainly understand the scourge that slavery entailed and understand that the remnants of slavery need to be eliminated in their entirety. I even understand that the remnants of racism may not be always evident to me and my family.
I think most reasonable people would agree with them above and that most American citizens are reasonable and desire the same opportunities for happiness.
It seems that many times the narrative on both sides are highjacked by the extreme positions.
This more than anything is terribly sad to see and experience day in and day out.
The Mississippi state legislature just passed a bill to change the flag; now the bill goes to the governor’s desk. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/28/politics/mississippi-flag-confederate-emblem/index.html
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I mentioned Faith Hill. I had just been wondering here on CC about the consensus in Mississippi and within minutes saw a tweet by Faith Hill advocating for replacing the flag. I read the comments to gauge the reaction and was shocked by what I saw. It was depressing, and while I don’t take the comments as representative of what is actually happening in Mississippi, it was depressing to me on a human level.
Hope that clarifies why it was brought up at all.
Here is how someone on the internet put it in favor of changing the flag…
“How would you feel if your husband kept a picture of his ex-girlfriend on display because it’s “history” ?” How long do you think it would last?
The last vote on the MS state flag was 2001 when a referendum lost. Times change.
Very happy to see this change.
As regards the debate (flags, monuments, statues), what I say to defenders of confederate icons is this: where are the statues of the southerners who defended the Union? Are citizens of the state of Kentucky any less proud of their heritage (Kentucky never officially left the Union)? Were the citizens who either voted against succession (a near majority in Mississippi) or waged war against the Confederates (see the history of Jones County MS) less deserving of honors and admiration? I don’t see many memorials to those groups of southerners.
Germany bans Nazi flags. There are no statues of Hitler, et al in Germany but monuments to those who suffered at the hands of the Nazis.
Confederates fought against the US to secede and maintain ownership of other human beings. There is a a name for those who go to war against their own nation: traitors. Confederate “heroes” should not be honored.
It’s not about “heritage” unless you celebrate your heritage of owning people.
Those who state the Civil War was about “states’ rights”, YES–it was about the rights of states to continue to allow slavery.
Some (many) may disagree, but sometimes the truth can be harsh.
Very true. The reality is that slavery was expressly noted in several states’ declaration of succession, including Mississippi.
Yes, and they will be so welcoming to all in the future that the yet to be designed flag is required to contain the words “In God We Trust “. ?
I think it’s good progress. Glad to see the battle flag removed.
However I really have no problem with in god we trust. It’s on the currency already. Lol.
Especially since that can whatever god you say - which can include just about anything possible from a dark perspective, humanist, math and science to multiple to none.
Like in god you trust, all others must pay in cash.
That’s pretty consistent with religious freedom.
People often confuse this with freedom from religion.
Statues of Southerners who defended the Union: Sam Houston.
He opposed secession but was also the hero of Texas independence.
^How did I not know that?? One of my ancestors was the quartermaster in his army and was at San Jacinto.
And yet, Texas confederates were so angry with Governor Sam Houston that they removed him from office. And as I recall, the Houston memorial in Lexington, Virginia does not mention his support of the Union or his opposition to the Confederacy.
The Civil War was a long time ago. When you start talking about your great-great grandfather or the great-great-great grandfather of anyone is college age today, you might as well be talking about ancient history.
When we toured Gettsyburg in the late '80s, our elderly tour guide told us that when he was a boy he knew a woman who had been in the town at the time of the battle. That made it seem a lot more recent.
Again no human being is perfect (including Sam Houston). Our collective quest to live up to an unattainable standard and/or ideal of perfection in humans will always leave most of people disappointed. Selective memory or creative history as a society in order to be perfect is not sustainable until there is a collective reckoning for past wrongdoings.
Slavery was a terrible scourge as was the treatment of so many other groups of people that supersede race (ie women, Irish, Asians, Italians, Native Americans, LBGTG+, etc).
Hopefully what is going on in our country now will help all of us with reckoning with ourselves as a society and that we can all accept responsibility for past mistakes and realize that no group of people or system is perfect.
Personally, our system of government and society is the best in world. Is it perfect? No not at all. But does our system work the best? Yes I believe our system works the best, but like all good things, our system is a constant work in progress
ACLU: “When you fly a flag, it has meaning…The decision to retire the Mississippi state flag isn’t erasing history, it’s telling the truth about it. Telling that truth is a necessary move in reckoning with America’s legacy of slavery.”
It is short-sighted to think that 3 or 4 generations back is ancient history.