<p>I beleive meateater is in illnois and you are in NY?
Both have social host laws- might want to brush up :)</p>
<p>Here in Florida one of my neighbors (the parents) were hauled off to jail after serving alcohol to a party of 16 yr. olds.</p>
<p>I’m from Missouri, and the only NY laws that I know about (or need to know about, for that matter) are the ones that prohibit being drunk underage (I’ve never seen that one enforced…) and the ones that punish underage possession (which I’ve only seen enforced at busted frat parties, and only against the frat itself). I don’t doubt that New York does have a social hosting law, though; the drinking laws up here suck.</p>
<p>I have no idea about Illinois law; I do know that Missouri didn’t have a social host law last I checked, and that in many states simply permitting underage drinking is not a cut and dry case (there’s actually an interesting case in Florida going on right now involving parents knowingly permitting underage drinking). We supposedly have law banning underage intoxication, but its new, I’ve never heard of it being enforced, and I seriously question its enforcability (it uses a term that is supposed to be defined in a different statute, but that term is never actually defined, which brings the validity of the law into question).</p>
<p>My sister in law (Pennsylvania) said that if her son were to get caught drinking (he’s 20) he wouldn’t be able to get his teaching certificate for 5 years? I didn’t understand what she was talking about, but I had heard from someone with a kid at Bucknell that they’d been cracking down bigtime on student drinking…expulsion.</p>
<p>I can vouch for Bucknell cracking down; I have a friend who goes there, and he’s talked about how ridiculous their rules on drinking are.</p>
<p>Quoting lucifer: </p>
<p>Most risks other than drunk driving are nearly negligible; it is possible to die from alcohol poisoning, but most cases like that occur at college with kids who either a) don’t know what they’re doing drinking-wise or b) are being hazed and try to drink a ridiculous amount of alcohol in a night (a kid who tried to down two handles (~120 oz) of vodka after being told to and later died comes to mind)). Alcohol-related injuries (falls, etc.) are possible, but again serious ones (more than scrapes or minor bruises) are rare relative to the amount of drunken stupidity in the world.</p>
<p>I am generally very charitable to misguided students on these boards, but these statements are ignorant and dangerous. Just as ignorant and dangerous as statements made by kids at my D’s school during a recent parent/student discussion on alcohol and drugs when they said that they would “know” when one of their friends drank too much that they were in trouble and would get them help and that they could “tell” if someone was unconscious in trouble or just passed out from drinking. Horse hockey. They don’t know squat. I recently spent all night in the hospital doing an organ donor evaluation on a teenager who drank to unconsciousness while his “friends” egged him on. They left him on the floor to “sleep it off.” Except he never woke up. He was brain dead. His parents were devastated. I was enraged. We couldn’t even use the organs because the alcohol had poisoned them all, so there was NO good that could have come from this idiotic action. </p>
<p>lucifer, you are ignorant and dangerous. I encourage all parents to do whatever it takes to stop this underage drinking. Call the counselor, call other parents, call the police. Do what it takes.</p>
<p>I am ignorant? I can tell you, both statistically and anecdotally, that it is very rare and comparitively hard for someone to drink themselves to death. Me and my friends are all very experienced drinkers, and we all know exactly how we get when we drink too much, so we go by those signs. For those we don’t know as well, we ensure that they throw up (so they don’t absorb any more alcohol from their stomach) and are responsive and reasonably coherent to make sure they won’t die. Given the huge number of teens who drink, and the amount that many teens drink combined with the risky drinking patterns inherent in teen drinking (chugging, taking lots of shots before you can even fully feel the first one, the list goes on and on), and the relatively small number of pure alcohol (i.e. stopped breathing) deaths compared to both the number of drinkers and the number of people who die from drinking and driving, it is clear that drinking is usually only problematic when combined with driving. Honestly, that’s why I like drinking with experienced drinkers - it is MUCH harder for someone with a tolerence to drink themselves dead than it is for a drinking novice who has no idea of how to drink and also has no tolerence.</p>
<p>Don’t try to intimidate me with medical facts; I know most any alcohol related fact backwards and forwards. I don’t take blind risks, and I’m fully aware of the risks I take with drinking. In my mind, the benefits of drinking - the fun, the camaraderie, the burn of that first shot - vastly outweight the costs (I’ve paid my dues for drinking in a number of ways). I learned as much from drinking/partying during high school as I did from classes (and I took 14 APs), not to mention that while a lot of the things I learned in HS I’ll never really use again (i.e. chemistry), I’ll always use the skills I learned from drinking/partying (how to read a situation, a lot about people in general, etc.). You’re every bit as ignorant as you accuse me of being, quiltguru.</p>
<p>yes there are those who are fortunate enough not to currently know of long term repercussions of alcohol use and abuse
I am not so fortunate
some of the tragedies that befell students in my upper middle suburban high school. these are jsut some of the ones I knew about at the time because they happened to friends and the ones I can remember.</p>
<p>car full of some of the most beloved and popular students in the school-
a girl who was one of a pair of boy girl twins was killed- I helped to scrub her blood off the street so her parents didn’t have to see it.
her brother who was in the car has been in jail which essentially has been a death sentence for him as he has AIDS and he is refused treatment . </p>
<p>Several teens in seperate accidents drove off cliffs in CA- drinking was involved ( these were students from my high school in Kirkland Wa)
One friend was in an accident- single car- seemed to recover- but a clot broke loose and he went into a coma and died.
Two of my best friends- attempted to row across a residential lake in October, while at a party- they are assumed to have drowned- their bodies were never found. I don’t think I have ever really gotten over it.
These are just a few incidents where people have DIED.
not all were underage- but all had been using alcohol as a social lubricant at very least
Dare to speculate on how many rapes- property damage- opportunities wasted- friendships damaged because of alcohol?
it isn’t innocous.</p>
<p>I said - in both posts - that drinking and driving was dangerous. I never advocated drinking and driving. To quote myself,
Most of the problems you cite seem to result from drinking and driving (or drinking and rowing, which may be even worse of an idea).</p>
<p>For every friendship damaged I’ll point to a friendship made (and most of the times I’ve seen friendships damaged the damage has been either minor and reperable or has been the result of two “friends” with many issues getting drunk and finally being honest with each other). Does alcohol have a cost? Yes (though IMO the vast majority of that cost comes from drunk driving, not just drinking. Drunk driving is simply irresonsponsible use of alcohol; if people often took benadryl and drove (which can be as bad as driving drunk) no one would call for banning benadryl; similarly, using a cell phone while driving has been shown to be as dangerous as driving drunk, yet I hear no calls to involve the police when a teenager uses a cell phone while driving). While I’m sorry that alcohol seems to have been such a negative influence in your life, it has been a tremendously positive influence in my life and the lives of many of my friends. I never claimed alcohol to be harmless; I claimed alcohol to have more benefit than harm.</p>
<p>How quickly parents forget that the drinking age was probably 18 when they were kids. My parents have always let me and my friends drink at my house, they aren’t overly concerned with getting arrested for serving alcohol to minors A) because they aren’t ■■■■■■■■ enough to open the house to a police officer B) They wouldn’t let a kid who was clearly drunk drive home. My point remains that if some nosy mom called my mom and “warned” her about drinking she would laugh and tell her to get a life. When I see these things like “Operation Extra Eyes” (A group of mothers that watches people come out of clubs and use their “expert” ability to tell if they are drunk, then they call the cops) I want to throw up. It’s really pathetic how some of these lamers have no lives of their own. Also, I live in Maryland (although I don’t really “live” there per se) which has some of the worst and harshest underage drinking laws in the country.</p>
<p>I would want to know if anyone knew something about my kids but it is a slippery slope when your child tells you in confidence about a friend especially if her friend is 18. If it is something you witness for yourself then I would share that info. I have before and although my friend was initially upset and a little cold, we are still very close friends 8 yrs later. In the case of my D’s friend over 18, she and another student went and talked to the school psychologist and reported their fears. They were encouraged to get the girl to come in and do an intervention with her but she has yet to go.</p>
<p>I agree 100% meateater. Most of the time people get caught serving alcohol to kids/allowing kids to drink on their property is because they are either a) stupid and willingly let cops in or are stupid and let kids visibly drink outside where a cop can see or b) have a kid get in a serious accident on the way home after drinking.</p>
<p>I wish to respond to an earlier comment by Luci when he sounds afraid of the child welfare system.</p>
<p>First, my “credentials” for what they’re worth:</p>
<ol>
<li> My degree is in nursing, which makes me a mandated reporter.</li>
<li> My husband and I have cared for 25 foster children within the system.<br></li>
<li> I worked for the county mental health as an advocate for families with SED (severely emotionally disturbed) children. This included such things as suicidal, ADHD, behavior disorders, etc.</li>
<li> I worked as a substitute teacher within the school system.</li>
<li> I am a volunteer “surrogate parent” for special ed children in state custody, needing IEPs.
(I was also a piano teacher, and a free-lance writer/editor – but that has nothing to do with this, except that I don’t want to confuse people who know of my other jobs.)</li>
</ol>
<p>I am not sure why Luci is so afraid of DFCS. </p>
<p>My experience has shown me that</p>
<p>A. DFCS (or whatever it may be called in your state) is not interested in taking custody of more children than they need to. They are understaffed already. They are not out to get you.
B. Allegations of DFCS or foster parent failings are newsworthy. Exonerations are not. Parents accused of abusing their children love to point fingers away from themselves, so accusations are prevalent.
C. DFCS has a wide range of resources available, and they are trained to help you take advantage of those. They are far more interested in helping you fix problems than taking your children away.
D. They seldom remove 17 years olds. By the time it goes through the system, the kid will be 18 and no longer a minor. Referrals to mental health/substance abuse programs are much more likely.<br>
E. Many of our children came through mandated referrals via the schools. Unfortunately, there were almost always other people who “knew” or suspected, or at least “weren’t suprised” but didn’t think it was their business.
F. 90% (or so) of children in state custody have been sexually abused. Of the teens in care, almost all of them have been abandoned (via juvenile court) by their parents as “unruly”. These teens are a social worker’s nightmare, because it is very difficult to place them into foster homes. If their own parents can’t control them, how could a perfect stranger?
G. Schools take their responsibility seriously, but not frivolously. Decisions to report are not made lightly.</p>
<p>And pertaining to the most recent postings, I sincerely hope that Luci is exaggerating to try to impress us parents or something. (It isn’t working; I feel only pity.) I hope he matures in time to prevent any more serious problems. He sounds like a bright kid – just think what he could have been without the haze.</p>
<p>I have enough scars from alcohol-related events – both personal, as a nurse, and as a foster parent, to have absolutely no respect for parents who think it’s okay to foster drinking parties for minors.</p>
<p>My 12 yr. old told me that a parent served beers to a bday party of 11 yr. olds last year. I was disgusted but didn’t get involved because it was so ludicrous. They couldn’t drive, that’s for sure. If my son had been there, I probably would have notified the authorities. sick.</p>
<p>Here’s the problem with parents allowing underage kids to drink in their homes 1) They should not have responsibility for other parents kids. Meateater, just because it’s okay for you and your parents to allow underage drinking, doesn’t mean it’s okay with me. 2) Within the last year there was one newspaper story about kids leaving a party without the parents (hosts) knowledge, driving drunk and getting killed. Another where the kid left the party drunk, saying he was going to walk home and then getting hit by a car because he decided to walk in the middle of the road. </p>
<p>So, if parents are hosting an underage drinking party does that mean they are getting the other parents permission, confiscating keys and guarding the doors until everyone is sober? Give me a break.</p>
<p>its actually legal I beleive to allow your own child to have a drink- however it is NOT legal or ethical to allow other children have substances which are illegal for them in your home.
I wonder if these other parents have called meats parents and spoken to them about supervision.
Parents need to continue to be involved in their adolescents lives, as we have seen on these boards, these teens can’t raise themselves</p>
<p>“absolutely no respect for parents who think it’s okay to foster drinking parties for minors”</p>
<p>Thank you, binx. I couldn’t agree with you more and wonder why more parents don’t have this sensibility. One kid drinking underage is one kid too many. NO underage drinking is safe.</p>
<p>How am I trying to “impress?” I didn’t say “wow look at me I drank 600 beers in a night therefore I know EXACTLY what I’m talking about,” I made a coherent argument against the anti-alcohol venom running through the rest of this thread. </p>
<p>I am against involving CPS/DFCS/whatever because I think bringing the government in should be a last resort most of the time. Sure, I think the police/CPS should be called if there is good reason to think a child is being sexually molested. However, unless there is reason to think that the parent is harming the child (i.e. molestation, abuse, whatever), then I think that the first step should ALWAYS be to contact them and try to resolve it without government intervention.</p>
<p>Take your talk of “haze” elsewhere - I enjoy drinking, but I certainly don’t go through life in a haze. I’m on track to either double or triple major plus get an MEng in 8 semesters, I run marathons for fun, and generally live life to its fullest. I do not drink myself into a stupor and waste days, months and years. Drinking is a recreational activity that I very much enjoy, but I keep it in its place - drinking only with friends and only when it won’t interfere with my other goals (I’m not Bode Miller, I don’t drink before marathons or prelims). Alcohol hasn’t limited me in any way, nor has it ever prevented me from achieving success. I’m sorry that alcohol has caused you such problems, binx, but I’m not telling you to drink. I’m just counteracting the anti-alcohol posts that everyone else seems to have and saying that it is possible for alcohol to be a positive, enjoyable thing. That, and also showing that liability wise that drunk driving (or other dangerous activity after drinking, like drunk jetskiing) is by far the biggest problem because it is far easier and far more likely that someone will drink and drive and kill themselves/someone else than it is they will drink enough to stop breathing.</p>
<p>dke, that is ridiculous even for me. It’s one thing for 16 year olds and 18 year olds to drink, quite another for 11 year olds to drink.</p>
<p>Emeraldkity4, there are plenty of teens who are capable and competent enough to handle themselves and don’t need much, if any, supervision; the amount of supervision necesscary depends on the kid.</p>
<p>Yes, quiltguru, an 18 year old drinking is dangerous. Once someone turns 21 alcohol magically becomes totally safe, and no one who’s 21 or over drinks and drives, drinks themselves to death, or ever suffers because of alcohol. Contrarily, everyone under 21 ruins their lives with even one sip.</p>
<p>Get real - there is little to no difference between an “underage” 18 year old drinking and a 21 year old drinking.</p>
<p>Today’s news:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2006/01/11/teen_wants_others_to_learn_from_her_mistake/[/url]”>http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2006/01/11/teen_wants_others_to_learn_from_her_mistake/</a></p>
<p>“I remember saying, I think I’m a little buzzed,” she said. “But I was trashed out of my mind. It tasted like water to me because I was so drunk.”…</p>
<p>The freshman said she did not think she had a problem with drugs or alcohol…</p>
<p>Her father, Shannon Foose, said the family is trying to file a CHINS petition Child In Need of Services petition to help keep his daughter under control. Foose and his wife, Lisa, said they are unsure this most recent incident has taught their daughter a lesson.</p>
<p>She has always been open with her parents, but her promises to clean up and devote more time to school have been empty thus far, Shannon Foose said.</p>
<hr>
<p>It’s stories like this that make us not trust statements by teens who are convinced they can handle it. “I am not a problem drinker.” Gee, never heard that before.</p>
<p>I’m sorry if I am misjudging you, Luci, and you really are the exception who knows exactly what the alcohol is doing, and are in complete control of it all the time. If that is true, I hope you can also maintain it. </p>
<p>Re: your comment to quiltguru; a quick Google turned up this: “adolescents who begin drinking before age 15 are four times more likely to develop alcohol dependence than those who begin drinking at age 21.”</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>“A child who reaches age 21 without smoking, abusing alcohol or using drugs is virtually certain never to do so.”</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>“The three leading causes of death for 15- to 24-year-olds are automobile crashes, homicides and suicides – alcohol is a leading factor in all three.”</p>
<p>No, I don’t think 21 is “magic.” But I do think most US teens are immature compared to many other countries, and every year of maturity hopefully brings about more responsible attitudes towards alcohol. So I do think it is better than 18. Or 19. Or 20.</p>
<p>When talking with my own kids, I have taught them not to ask, “Why can’t I?” but to ask, “Why should I?” “Is drinking illegally the best way to social with friends and have fun?” Fortunately, so far they’ve come up with a different answer than you have. </p>
<p>Everybody likes to point to Europe’s tolerance for alcohol. Germany’s drinking age for beer is 16 (18 for hard liquor). They even have a beer garden at my daughter’s school’s annual Open House. BUT, Germans don’t get their driver’s license till they’re 18, and it costs $1500 - $2000. A single drunk driving offense usually means they lose the license and pay a high fine. Any sensible German who drinks much at all, knows in advance that he will, and walks there and back.</p>
<p>In fairness, Luci, my comments about alcohol were, at least in part, directed as much or more toward Meate, and I should have made that clear. It was your comment about social services that prompted me to use your name. And the part about sexual abuse was included mainly to relieve your concerns that every kid referred to the school counselors ended up in state care. Yes, once a kid is entangled in state welfare laws, it can be a time consuming process, but they aren’t put there arbitrarily. </p>
<p>You also were concerned that, “The school has no business knowing about anything that doesn’t directly concern it.” “Tattling” without facts isn’t something that should be taken lightly. But confronting parents is not always safe, wise. And some people just aren’t gutsy enough. The whole “mandated reporter” thing was started so that there would be objective safety nets for kids. School officials are also not out there to “get” people. Once the situation is passed on, school officials are NOT kept informed of a case’s progress, and have no power over it. </p>
<p>This is way too long already, and I’m afraid it comes across as too black and white. I wish there weren’t problems with teenaged drinking. I wish there weren’t people who hurt their kids. I wish all parents cared enough about their kids, and knew how to address every problem. I wish kids didn’t get depressed, bullied, drunk, stoned, etc. </p>
<p>Since the world isn’t perfect, we’ll have to keep trying. As best we know how.</p>