I’m sure there have been discussions about this on CC before, so if anyone could point me toward those I’d appreciate it. My question concerns the unsolvable dilemma of helping a student pursue the high-risk low-return career option of MT versus a safer career option in, say, engineering or business. My son especially needs ammunition in order to talk to his dad, who, out of love and concern for him, is against him pursuing a degree in musical theatre. My son has a good, scientific brain and scores well in math, science, etc., but he is not overwhelmingly excited by those college choices. He has been in MT since age 10 and for the last two years has talked about this as his college major. He thinks he has the dedication and work ethic to act professionally. His dad is having a very hard time with it, as do I from time to time. I frequently drive him and his older sister to auditions, see the huge amount of competition for every professional role or ensemble, and see the young actors–poorly dressed, barely making it financially, but generally happy and friendly. My husband sees a future of no income, no ability to buy a home, no money to start a family, and a lifetime of living hand to mouth, hoping the next audition will be the one to break through. He says he knows that money doesn’t mean happiness, but it does mean some level of security, comfort and confidence in the future. While I love watching my son perform and will miss it if he stops, I sometimes question the damage I might have done to him by encouraging him in performance throughout his childhood and teen years. Any advice or links to articles/discussions about this?
This thread may be helpful to you: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1754430-creating-a-vocational-safety-net-for-musical-theater-majors-p1.html
Thanks. This looks great. I didn’t spot it when I scanned through the threads.
Life as a professional actor, even a fairly successful one, can be tough:
The link to the post above is near the end of the thread, you may want to go back to the beginning.
It’s a very tough life, very hard to make a living performing, no doubt about that. Lots of people can’t handle that and switch gears at some point, often after they’ve finished school. My child may be one of them someday; I have no idea. But I do know that if we had TOLD her she couldn’t major in what she wanted to major in she would have resented us and always wondered what “could have been” had she followed her heart and passion. As it stands now, if she ever decides to get out, it will be HER choice, and she’ll do it based on her own life experiences, not ours. Not to say I don’t see where you and your husband are coming from. I do. I have 2 kids in the arts and worry to death about what is ahead for them. But I kind of think that unless you take a stand and say you won’t pay for college (which probably wouldn’t go over well), you pretty much don’t have a say here. What you CAN do is draw financial lines now, like saying we support your choice and will do what we can to help you, but will not support you going into debt over this, or something like that. And I will add that I am not a performer and not in the arts, but what I am doing now for a living is not at ALL what I wanted to do/thought I would do when I applied to college at 18. I graduated, then switched gears in kind of a drastic way. You could get your engineer or business man yet, even if your son majors in MT! On his own terms though…
Thank you, that’s good advice. Another factor is that we also have an older daughter in the arts (vocal major), and she has musical theatre dreams, too. My husband had a tough time with that too, but sees my daughter as very pro-active, dedicated, and able to combine multiple jobs (coaching, directing, choral, admin) into a career. Maybe it’s a father-son thing (and the ingrained belief that men must be the providers), but he is having a worse time envisaging the same career for our son. Another “problem” is that they are both smart kids who could, based on academics, succeed in almost any other college choice. Dad’s point is that they get to go to college once, with no do-overs (we have no money to support experiments). I worry that my enthusiasm for their performance talents has led them down a path that is not going to be rewarding for them in “real life”. I guess I have to determine that the decision is theirs, not ours and they will reap the rewards or deal with the consequences of a wrong decision.
EmsDad, your thread is great - and scary. Thank you!
This topic comes up often!
My point of view…
I never cared what my kids majored in at college. I don’t think the college major necessarily determines what you can or will do for your career. Many adults are working in fields that they did not major in during college. College is an education. A college degree opens doors for many career possibilities. I sent my kids to college to become educated human beings. They pursued their majors of interest (and I do have one who got a BFA in MT). Right now, both of my kids, who are in their upper 20s have careers related to their college majors, but if they didn’t, that would be normal and fine too. My MT kid has been out of college for almost 6 years and ALL of her jobs have been in theater and music. But even if they were not, it would not have been a waste to major in MT. She took other courses as well. But even theater courses prepare one to do many types of jobs and involve many valued skill sets applicable to many fields. Not only that, but even if one doesn’t perform on stage, one can do other theater related jobs (besides jobs in other fields of course). Time will tell. It is true that it is not an easy path. But I think the main thing is your child is getting a college education and that will serve him well in life. Another option at some point is graduate school, though I don’t think my MT kid will be going down that path. My non-MT kid did go to graduate school. Many undergraduate majors, particularly in the liberal arts, do need a graduate degree to enter certain professions. So, if your son were to major in history, for example, he might end up going to grad school eventually anyway. College is not simply what you major in. At many programs, you take other courses besides in theater. But the theater courses still involve a variety of skills that are assets in other fields and are valued out in the real world. I would not be concerned with my kid’s choice of major. It is an opportunity to study what interests them. Doors will open in their lives and careers to do many things and not only MT and for some kids, they will make a career in MT or related areas.
Warning: This is long and you may want to skip on to another more relevant post.
I have three sons on arts related paths. All three are smart and we made it clear from elementary school that they could go to college in field of their choice, but we would not go into debt to fund it. All were smart enough to qualify for merit scholarships - up to and including a free ride - if they applied themselves. We spent their “college funds” on Legos, private lessons and classes in Arts related things, science camps, Legos, school field trips in the Bahamas, Legos, exchange/orchestra trips in Europe, creative writing/Painting/Dance pre-college summer intensives, and did I mention Legos. All three made it through various combinations of AP classes (including AP Calc). Not bragging, just saying they had “options”.
Son #1 loved science and did very well in math, but chose not to apply himself in final years of HS to the best of his capabilities. By the time college application season came around he qualified for minor merit scholarships, but did not get into his dream college where he had a life-changing pre-college experience in creative writing. Our contribution to paying for his college was free room and board while he commuted to local “large” university paid for by student loans (max federal) in his name only. He struggled to find his path in college and lost his scholarship. He persevered and after five years got his degree in creative writing. He now works a part-time factory job, filling in with a restaurant job when needed and finally got a “college” living experience with 3 other guys in a college area house. All of them have decided to put their focus on their rock band. They have yet to make a profit, but all feed themselves, pay rent on time, have (mostly) working cars and are thrilled with what they are doing (and S is making his student loans payments on time). Son #1 is not living a conventionally successful life, but he’s where HE is supposed to be at this place in time. He still voraciously reads science-related literature and is working on his future dystopia novel/screen play/web series. He may get MFA in writing - or not.
Son #2 is incredible visual artist, musician and writer. He was National Merit Semi-Finalist, but REALLY chose not to apply himself in HS and did not make finalist. With his art portfolio, incredible test scores and lousy grades he was accepted to every prestigious art school he applied to. Almost all gave generous scholarships, but not generous enough for H & I to justify going into big debt to pay the difference - given his HS “commitment” issues. We are again giving free room and board for him to attend local art college on half tuition scholarship. S #2 is talking on federal student loans in his name, and H & I also taking on small loan to pay difference. S #2’s path is rocky and he stumbles sometimes, but so far, keeps going. We’re not sure how/where this one will end up. But we KNOW that a traditional college major would have been a road to disaster. When this one finds his stride, there will be no stopping him.
S #3 (the one relevant to OP) did very well in school. Science and Math were not favorites, but he loved History and Latin (go figure). From the time he was 11, he KNEW MT was the path for him. Nothing else would do. He put up with school, but lived his “real life” during evenings and weekends in studios, theaters, lessons, rehearsals and practicing. He got very good test scores, top 10 in his class and was National Merit finalist. He is attending an MT BFA program on merit-based full scholarship.
I guess this is my long-winded way of saying, I believe our kids should have the right to follow their dreams/passions, but it is not a given that parents will foot the bill. Some parents may have the means and desire to give their kids that privilege. H & I decided long ago that we would support our kids in whatever path they put serious effort into, but we would not go into major debt. Nor would we “hand it over” if we happened to have that kind of money. This would be true whether they became artists or engineers. We made it clear that if they chose to take on student loan debt, they would be the ones paying it back. They were also free to get jobs, or develop a “creative” idea to make money for college. None of the three did that, but S #3, the devoted singer/dancer/actor found a way to go for free.
It will take the same kind of effort to make a living after college. All three sons are free to be as SUCCESSFUL as they choose. That will not mean waiting for some one to “give” them a book/movie deal, recording contract, gallery show or role in a play/TV show. It will mean creating something that doesn’t exist yet, that people don’t even know they want, and figuring out how to get it to them. H likes to speak of participation in the “rational economy” - where most of us get paid for our efforts to help someone else, some other entity, attain THEIR goals. VS. the" irrational economy" - where YOU create something that thousand/millions of others will pay “stupid” money to have/see/experience. True creatives - of any type - are in a singular position to take advantage of this. If they work as hard at perfecting their skills and “creating” as others do at “improving the bottom line for the company”, they will find success. We all have to put in our 10,000 hours. Why not let our kids spend that doing something they love, rather than on something they do out of fear and someone else’s idea of “security”? And yes, they can always change their minds.
@claire74, many many of the MT kids here and elsewhere are super-smart kids who could succeed in just about anything if they wanted to. Succeeding in this business takes talent AND brains. And most of us can’t afford college do-overs. Yes, the lack of security is daunting, but I think if your son is that smart, he’ll figure out how to survive. I wouldn’t think of it as a “wrong” decision but a decision based on where he is in his life right now. That could change no matter what major he picks. Personally, I don’t think people should be allowed to go to college or get married until they’re 30. I’m kidding of course, but how many of us really know ANYTHING before then? But whatever you do, don’t beat yourself up for being a good Mom and encouraging their interests and talents growing up. MOST kids quit those dance classes and/or stop those music lessons at some point. If your kids kept going, it was because it it became part of who they are. And it’s not like you didn’t let them do other things. If they are smart and have gone to good schools and have a computer and basically exist in America, they’ve been exposed to tons of things. Yet they re choosing this. What can you do?
momforbwayboy–Love it! This is really great advice–it shows that you support your kids but draw the lines at paying for their passions. This is a great message. Calliene-thank you, I have to get over thinking it has anything to do with me. My dad was actually a singer who gave it up in his mid-twenties to work in factories and support his family. I think he regretted it all his life.
I fully respect others’ choices. For me, however, I would not draw the line in paying for my kids’ passions. I was paid for them to be educated (in college and grad school) and would have paid the same whether their passion was engineering, music, English, math, law, biology, theater, etc.
By the way, I agree with some posts that comment that there are kids who opt to get a degree in MT who have academic profiles that would get them into very selective academic colleges and majors. I know my MT kid did, but by the same token, it really helps to be a very smart person if pursuing a theater career as well.
I deluded myself for many years, thinking I had influence over who my kids would become. Looking back, for all three I can find memories of instances where they “declared” who they are in toddler-hood. If I’d have known that at the time, I could have saved myself a lot of worry, self-blame, guilt and even pride. Unbeknownst to me, they were born on the path they were meant to walk. I could only hold their hands and stop them from running in front of cars along the way. And provide unlimited Legos. Maybe it was the Legos that did it. If only I’d stopped at set number 137. But I thought they would be architects, or engineers, or molecular scientists, or astronauts - there were LOTS of spaceships. . .
I cross-posted with mom4bwayboy; she says things SO much better than I do! 
This, from above, says it all: “I guess I have to determine that the decision is theirs, not ours and they will reap the rewards or deal with the consequences of a wrong decision.”
Now is the time for separation. Parents can decide to support a young adult financially or not to do so. But it is not, in my opinion, developmentally appropriate for parents to choose their children’s goals at this point. There is no way of knowing where a path leads and you will find plenty of doctors, lawyers, and college professors who came to those areas of focus much later in life after successful careers as performers. Life is long and the greatest possibility for growth awaits the young person who chooses his own future.
I am committed to supporting my children financially, as much as I am able, through college. To my mind, the major or school or timing is not for me to choose. Controlling my children’s choices by withholding support would be wrong for me. That’s simply not the relationship I want to have with them or want them to have with me. If I didn’t have the money to help then that would be the limiting factor. But picking and choosing for them would undermine all the messages they’ve received about exercising good judgement and managing the consequences of their decisions.
And even if your child goes the BFA path as my son did, college is so much more than “training” alone. As vocal1046 notes, it is a time of separation, and consequently, growth for both child and parent. As my college freshman son remarked to me this year, “I’m a human first, and an actor second.”. In the end, his growth as a person is far more important to me than success on the stage.
It sounds as if your son has his head screwed on straight, @entertainersmom. Also seems pretty clear where he learned his values.
@claire74: Your original post left me thinking yesterday about how difficult it has been to watch my children turn away from areas of intellectual strength or innate ability that tied in to a high likelihood of employment or academic status. It has, at times, seemed glaringly obvious to me that they were making poor choices. The reality is that the relative wisdom or foolishness of those choices is not for me to judge and is, in fact, unknowable.
Rather than hope that your son can convince his father you might consider directing your own energies to helping your co-parent accept that the time has come for your son to craft his own mission statement and plot his own course. Your son deserves his father’s unconditional emotional support.
How you and his father make decisions about spending is a separate issue. That is a matter to address without involving your son since it is between the parents to decide how they allocate resources. Think about how you can approach this discussion as you do other financial decisions that involve leaps of faith. Any Bachelor’s degree has economic value.
Bear in mind that your son will not lose the intellectual capabilities that enable him to succeed at math and science. He will use them differently than his father might have imagined or preferred but they will still be his characteristics and will remain available for a variety of uses throughout his life. STEM aptitude is not a perishable good. It is shelf-stable.
This post is literally my current situation. I have excellent scores and good grades, and I’m deciding between a conservatory style BFA that my father hates to the point of refusing to pay for (solely based on name recognition—he went to an Ivy and it changed his life) and a liberal arts school that costs more than twice as much and would saddle my parents with a lot of debt. They never made saving for college a priority, and if we somehow make te expensive school happen that might effectively screw over my little sister. Who, by the way, wants to major in music performance and my dad is ABSOLUTELY FINE with that. But that’s another discussion. Honestly, I think it’s stupid that he’s denying that it was always going to be theatre, and it IS going to be theatre no matter where I go to school and no matter what I major in because I will find a way to get there. And since it’s going to be theatre, wouldn’t it make more sense for me not to graduate with a ton of debt from a school I like but wouldn’t be able to make the same connections at? Because then I’d probably want to go the MFA route before trying to start a career, and that means even more debt. Ugh.
My daughter always wanted a MT major and turned down Yale (much to my husband’s regret) to attend Northwestern because she thought it had a better MT program for her. She graduated almost 2 years ago, pursued acting for a little over a year, had a decent amount of success for a first year (off-Broadway, student films, on-line series, etc.) and found that her brain was disintegrating. Suddenly she discovered that there is a great big world out there and the people she was connecting with couldn’t care less. I’m not saying this is the way it is, it was just the way she found it. She came home one day and told us she decided to go back to school for Astrophysics. She does need to take some pre-reqs and do some research before she applies for graduate programs but she has discovered a renewed passion in an area that she thought she had little interest in.
She continues on her Improv and Musical Improv teams and occasionally still does an internet show and one other thing I think, but she is as enthusiastic about Astrophysics as she was about acting. Her advantage over many of her current classmates - she has a great personality and no fear of public speaking. She also is organized, can do two things at once, and never turns down an opportunity because she is too overworked. Much of this honed through her MT experience at Northwestern. Oh and she continues to love Big 10 football, which she says she could never have experienced at Yale.
Choosing the right college should be about more than just your major, it should be the overall experiences. What your child learns at college as a MT major will take him so much further than MT. Good luck!