Muslim shoots 6 Jews, kills one in Seattle

Parent Cafe
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<p>“The reason your Pakistani friend feels the way he does is possibly due to an understanding of Middle Eastern politics that you do not possess. Don’t read too much into it, but at the same time, do not be put off by your friend’s personal opinon. If he is like other Pakistanis I have had the pleasure of knowing, he will make his stand by your side when it truly matters.”</p>

<p>HOw in the world do you presume to know what understanding(s) I do or do not possess? As far as my friend is concerned, you are mistaken.</p>

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<p>Like I said, I will not discuss politics. I will say that Muslims aren’t that different from Christians.</p>

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<p>

Let me get this out of the way. I hardly care what you or anyone thinks of my posts or of my opinions. You don’t have to respect it at all, in fact. Are you mad at me for calling a spade a spade? I don’t know what you think Allmusic, but the last thing I think about when posting is what your opinion of me will be.</p>

<p>Any law based on religion is immoral and irrational, be it the Ten Commandments, or the Sharia. In cuerrent timer, not too many Christians are issuing ‘fatwas’, so the Sharia is in my crosshairs now. What I will not do is back down from calling an evil thing evil. To hell with political correctness. And could we stop with the ‘xenophobic’, ‘racist’, ‘bigot’ , ‘islamophobic’ crap already? Criticizing Islam (or any other religion for that matter) for ther right reasons doesn’t make you racist.</p>

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<p>Alexandre posted: “Like I said, I will not discuss politics. I will say that Muslims aren’t that different from Christians.”</p>

<p>Who said they were? What is your point?</p>

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<p>zoosermom: Do you not believe that there are people who commit anti-Muslim acts in the US? Whatever you think about CAIR, those links provided numerous examples of anti-Muslim activity, not just CAIR editorializing.</p>

<p>From the story that was posted shortly after 9/11…</p>

<p>“Khalid Iqbal, director of the Washington, D.C.-based advocacy group, says cases range from families being spat and yelled at, “Go back to your country,” to assaults on people and businesses.”</p>

<p>Okay, well, yeah, that’s still involving someone from CAIR, though he’s talking about specific instances that had been reported rather than gut feelings.</p>

<p>“In Texas, mosques in Irving and Denton were attacked last week in the wake of the terror attacks.”</p>

<p>That one has nothing to do with CAIR.</p>

<p>“On Sunday, the Islamic Society of Denton in Texas, which suffered only minor damage by the Molotov cocktail attack last week, held a prayer vigil.”</p>

<p>Nor does that one.</p>

<p>Do you not believe me that I saw bumper stickers on cars that pictured Arabs with the caption “Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out”? I can assure you that I did, though I have no photograph to provide you with evidence.</p>

<p>I’m not trying to claim that the Seattle attack was anything other than reprehensible, or that the current widespread anti-Semitism is anything other than reprehensible. At the moment, I’m not even trying to debate about the current situation in the Middle East. I’m just saying that Muslims have been hit with abuse too.</p>

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<p>You wrote the following above:</p>

<p>“I had always thought that most Muslims were moderate, but I’m coming to believe that moderation in Islam is very different from what Americans believe to be moderate and that we really are endangering ourselves by attributing our values to very different cultures.”</p>

<p>Maybe I misunderstood you. If so, I am sorry.</p>

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<p>Again I wonder whether posters on certain CC threads CAREFULLY read others’ opinions, just randomly pick verbal fights, make of facts out of whole cloth, or are simply content to be disagreeable.</p>

<p>To be clear, I didn’t make any subjective statements about the politics of the middle east, one way or the other. I remarked on what I saw, at times through television news reports, at other times in person.</p>

<p>Secondly, any fool understood the horrid anxiety felt by New Yorkers and Capital (DC) residents in the immediate aftermath of the terrorist attacks. I saw the army of the United States patroling roadways three blocks from my home for days. I saw armed jets fly over Manhattan and New Jersey. I watched this with a mix of relief (thankful for protection) and trepidation (fearful of the days ahead). So do not tell me what I saw and what I did not see and don’t try to obfuscate or argue by “asking for proof” of what transpired in plain sight and how people felt after the terrorist attacks.</p>

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<p>Jessie. Whoa there! The specific post referenced attacks in NYC, Bergen County and Passaic County. I asked for documentation of that and didn’t receive it. I didn’t say there were NO anti-Muslim incidents anywhere in the US, I asked for documentation of the specific allegations because I did not and still do not believe there was a large-scale problem. ANy hate incidents are unacceptable, but the specific statement was not proved.</p>

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<p>Look, either we retake the Holy Land or we’re gonna have to find a new route to India, plain and simple.</p>

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<p>LakeWashington: not sure if your post was aimed at me or zoosermom, but I’ll respond anyway. </p>

<p>“remarked on what I saw, at times through television news reports, at other times in person.”</p>

<p>So did I. The fact that our statements are different does not make one of them untrue. Muslims in the West face harrassment from an ignorant few. Muslims in Iran almost universally hate Israel, Jews and America. </p>

<p>“So do not tell me what I saw and what I did not see and don’t try to obfuscate or argue by “asking for proof” of what transpired in plain sight and how people felt after the terrorist attacks.”</p>

<p>‘Asking for proof’ is not obfuscation! If someone makes a statement, backing it up is the expected next step.</p>

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<p>Dadguy LOL, I am still searching for the spice route of Columbus and the Northwest Passage that Lewis & Clark bumbled.</p>

<p>Laylah, I still don’t know what statement your’e talking about. Methinks you extrapolated.</p>

<p>As for anyone else whose sister or token arab/muslim friend does not read newspapers or does not scrutinize TV news, please check the ADL website about anti-muslim/arab vandalism or attempted intimidatation in New Jersey immedidately following the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center. By the way, that “ADL” stands for Anti-Defamation League.</p>

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<p>“So do not tell me what I saw and what I did not see and don’t try to obfuscate or argue by “asking for proof” of what transpired in plain sight and how people felt after the terrorist attacks”</p>

<p>You made a statement that I believe to be urban legend and I asked you to back it up. It is not helpful in a heated and divisive climate for people to make incendiary statements just because they can. A lie repeated can take on the air of truth. When the reality is that the vast majority of people in New York, of all faiths and nationalities, weren’t at each other’s throats during that time. Again, I remind you that I live in New York City, always have, and was stranded in my office without power or phones on 9/11. (DId you know that evacuation of Staten Islanders from Manhattan by civilian boaters was the largest such act since Dunkirk?) So please don’t tell me what I saw and didn’t see, either, because what I saw for the first week or so was hope that someone (anyone) would be pulled out of the rubble long past the time that such hope was at all realistic. What I saw were signs on lamp posts asking “have you seen . . .” What I saw was repeated closings of bridges, tunnels and roads because something was sighted or a package was left unattended. What I saw was Canadian Mounties directing traffic in midtown, police and firemen from all over the country and other parts of the world coming to show us that they cared and were prepared to help us get back on our feet. What I saw was funerals that lasted for over a damn year. What I saw was spontaneous applause on the streets whenever fire trucks rode by for months and months. What I saw were shrines at every fire station and regular citizens making pilgramages there to bring food and to cry. What I did NOT see were hate crimes, attacks or rage against Muslims. Didn’t see it, didn’t hear of it. And I am and always have been a news junkie, so I can assure you that such incidents in any number would not have slipped past me.</p>

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<p>WashingtonLake: I was referring to your comment that ‘asking for proof’ is a form of obfuscation. It is not. When making a statement (in this case, that after 9/11 there were anti-Muslim attacks etc.) it is standard to back it up with a newspaper report. </p>

<p>Apologies if that was unclear in my previous post, hope that clarifies my comment!</p>

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<p>Ah, so now comes the qualifier. I was wondering when you would begin to backstep by saying something like you did not see such incidents “in any number.” I guess there’s no need to ask you if you bothered to review the reports noted by the ADL and others, since by your standards, not a sufficient number or people were harrassed or victimized by vandalism.</p>

<p>I am also not surprised to see you employ the charade of “who was victimized worse by 9-11.” I’ll keep my personal stories about that time private, with this exception; . I sobbed like no other time in my life when I watched tower 2 fall and heard that terrifying sound in person. I was underground when tower 1 fell. Guess where I was headed? WTC station. Like I said, any fool who was there was immersed in the tragedy ,sorrow (and, not surprisingly, somber optimism) those days in New York City after the attacks.</p>

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<p>No qualifiers from me. No one presented any evidence to support the urban legends. Read the links posted. THey don’t do it.</p>

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<p>“I am also not surprised to see you employ the charade of “who was victimized worse by 9-11.” I’ll keep my personal stories about that time private,”</p>

<p>WHat an utterly absurd, utterly vicious post. No such thing was done by me. A poster made a statement. I asked the poster to support it. Such was not done, because it couldn’t be. Don’t tell me about the ADL, either. I’ve worked with them for 20 years and their counsel is a close family friend. Those ADL link does not support the original statement either. Keep trying, though. Actually, don’t bother. I have no interest in anything you post.</p>

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<p>zoosermom: Oh, sorry, I think we got our wires crossed. My original post to you with the links about anti-Muslim activity was in response to where you said “Can you provide some evidence of that? I live in NYC and did so on 9/11 and never saw or heard of any such thing,” in reply to one of my posts about anti-Muslim bigotry. My post had not said anything about geographical area other than reference to “where I lived” (and Indy is very close to where I lived, and Texas is in the same region of the country). Now I see the other post talking about anti-Muslim sentiment in NYC, but I was never talking about NYC in particular in the first place.</p>

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<p>“My post had not said anything about geographical area other than reference to “where I lived” (and Indy is very close to where I lived, and Texas is in the same region of the country). Now I see the other post talking about anti-Muslim sentiment in NYC, but I was never talking about NYC in particular in the first place.”</p>

<p>Thank you for clarifying. That makes a lot more sense now! I didn’t say there was no anti-Muslim sentiment, of course there was, but I don’t believe that the original post was factual. I was sincerely waiting for some proof because the poster might as well have said that Martians are manning the machines in the Hershey factory for all that the statement made sense to me.`</p>

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<p>Also, ZM, I know (or at least I infer, perhaps I have jumped to conclusions) that you don’t like CAIR, but I’m not sure of any more obvious source for info about anti-Muslim activity - I mean, if I’m looking for numbers on anti-Jewish activity, I’d look at ADL. Given that…</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.pluralism.org/research/profiles/display.php?profile=74090[/url]”>http://www.pluralism.org/research/profiles/display.php?profile=74090&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>“According to the CAIR report, nearly 80% of anti-Muslim crime was committed in only 10 states. 20% of crimes were committed in California, followed by New York (10%), Arizona (9%), Virginia (7%), Texas (7%), Florida (7%), Ohio (5%), Maryland (5%), New Jersey (5%), and Illinois (3%).”</p>

<p>The same link also has disturbing figures from the ADL about anti-Jewish activity.</p>

<p>“As one sees in the ADL Audit of Anti-Semitic Incidents from both 2003 and 2004, anti-Semitic incidents are also on the rise. Incidents of harassment have increased and the same states remain the site of the majority of incidents, namely New York, New Jersey, California, Florida, Massachusetts and Connecticut. In 2004, anti-Semitic organizations were responsible for nearly 15% of harassment cases.”</p>

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<p>Jessie, the original post(s) from LakeWashington talked about hate crimes against Muslims in NYC, Bergen and Passaic counties being up in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 as a response to the attack, which I do not agree with. Even the CAIR statistics talk about 2003 and 2004 which, in my mind is not the immediate aftermath (the actual quote from LakeWashington was weeks and months after 9/11) and, thus, doesn’t make the point that I believe the poster to have been making. I’m not saying that the incidents didn’t occur or that CAIR’s statistics were wrong, but I am saying that LakeWashington’s initial post was simply not true. My comment about CAIR was a response to the specific quote in the specific link that a spokesman’s “gut” feeling was that incidents were up. That doesn’t prove anything to me, I’m sorry. I do believe that there is some less tolerance in this general area right now, at this time, but I don’t see it as a reaction to 9/11. There was a conviction in a white-on-black hate crime, there have been a couple of black-on-white hate crimes resolved without trial, there was a particularly ugly anti-Asian hate crime this past week, and there have been quite a few anti-Jewish hate crimes recently. It wouldn’t surprise me to know that there are incidents against Muslims (or Sikhs in the attackers’ ignorance), but I sincerely and honestly do not believe there was any rash of hate crimes in NYC or New Jersey against Muslims in the aftermath of or in response to 9/11. I again, respectfully, ask for someone to back up that statement with facts. As I posted earlier in the thread, it is simultaneously true that New Yorkers came together in the aftermath and that some in the media were absolutely drooling at the possibility of hate crimes and when they didn’t materialize, made up things to suit their positions because, after all, it could have happened.</p>