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</p>
<p>I really don’t see how my classes GREATLY differ from the classes you listed above. My school does not offer any AP’s and in my opinion, I’ve tried to do my best to take the most rigorous courses offered to me including taking AP courses online. Most of my classes cover the same entire subject (more or less), but just don’t have the AP name in front of it.</p>
<p>Then what is the issue? If your school doesn’t have the AP classes that information is sent over on the school report. You can take the AP tests to see if you can get the passing scores if your classes cover the same material. You are taking DE classes so you have a more rigorous schedule, which looks good in the eyes of the admissions people, but just don’t count on getting those credits in college unless you go to your state schools. It’s no different then what anyone else would experience at any high school. You started this tread saying that DE is harder than AP, we disagree, I posted why-basically the classes you are taking are a year behind what kids from other schools are taking which is probably why the DC classes seem harder to you. For kids that had the classes you are taking as a junior as a sophomore or freshman in high school, those classes would seem easier to them as a junior or senior.</p>
<p>I agree with Steve that I wouldn’t worry about not having AP since your school doesn’t offer them. If you want to be sure you are foundationally up to where your peers with AP in college will be (assuming they had 5s on the test), then get a Prep book and learn the added material.</p>
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<p>To address these…</p>
<p>You can try retaking the placement test and see how you do. It is possible to get a 700 on the SAT Math and still not place out of Trig because only one or two questions on the SAT even deal with Trig issues and those are generally covered in Geometry in today’s math classes. In other words, Trig is not on the SAT. It is, however, needed for higher level math. College Alg could be skipped if you can now do well on the placement test. Try it and find out. If it doesn’t place you into Calc, take College Alg. Yes, it’s that important to have a good foundation.</p>
<p>You are correct that not all who start Calc do very well in earlier math classes. However, you aren’t them. You want to head Pre-med - correct? For ANYONE heading Pre-med, your grades are incredibly important. Go here and click on Table 24:</p>
<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/</a></p>
<p>That shows you the acceptance rate to med school based upon MCAT and GPA. You want every A you can get and the best way to get those As is to thoroughly know the content through being prepared for the class to start with and keeping up with the class when in it. You can’t be a poor tester and do well getting into med school. Not only will you likely need a good MCAT score (unless you have the extensive medical experience I mentioned before making you a candidate for some BS/MD programs - and even some of those still require the MCAT), you’ll also find your college As are difficult to get without doing well on tests. Get used to doing tests and doing well on them. This is easier to do in high school than later. Do all homework, but not necessarily for grades - just to prepare yourself for the tests. Being overprepared is better than being underprepared.</p>
<p>Even if you were to get into a BS/MD program, most will not let you into med school if you don’t keep a minimum GPA.</p>
<p>To find a Pre-med adviser, go to the college website of a school you are thinking of going to. Find their pre-med page. Look for a “contact us” link or an e-mail address and type away with your questions. Try to be concise and CHECK FOR TYPOS before sending. DO NOT put any whining or complaining in it (your last posts on here are much better!). You are a student with a mission and you just want to know what you can do to get there. Do NOT put anything with d— in it if they tell you they want to see one language. Remember, you could take Arabic in college if you wanted to. It doesn’t need to be a high school course. </p>
<p>What I see here is you are a bright student with the potential to do well. I seriously doubt you’re a competitor for BS/MD but not due to AP/DE or even the one B you now have. It’ll be mainly due to lack of extensive medical experience somewhere IMO. But this doesn’t mean you can’t become a doctor. The vast majority of med students got there without BS/MD. You can too, but you do need to figure out how to position yourself well with both a solid foundation for those As and ideal classes to take with what you have.</p>
<p>As a last side note, I’d pick up AP level books for Bio and Chem and would make sure I was doing/reading those myself next year to be certain I had the foundation those with AP have when I reach that 4 year school and hit the Bio/Chem weeder courses. You don’t want to start behind the 8 ball there, nor do you want to take cc Bio or Chem courses (Med schools don’t like those).</p>
<p>Be flexible based upon the reputable info you’re getting (here and from the pre-med person). Be willing to work hard for those grades. Make sure you have decent extra curriculars too. (Those are all character traits they want to see in future doctors.) I wish you well.</p>
<p>@Creekland, thank you! Now where to begin…</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Can I somehow make the trig NOT count on my college transcript? I know many college don’t count the credits for many DE classes, so can’t this also be one of those classes? If so, then DE classes affect both my high school GPA and my college GPA, right?</p></li>
<li><p>College Algebra is a prerequisite to Trig, and not vice versa at my CC (and country wide, I believe). I’ll try and take the placement test again in the next month or so, maybe even after reviewing some Precalculus Algebra material. But then again, if I don’t get into Calculus, it’s fine - I’ll just continue re-building my base in math…</p></li>
</ol>
<p>EDIT: Reading you post again, here’s the breakdown of my math:
I did pre-calc sophomore year in high school. I then took the placement test the summer before junior year, and got placed into Trig (a level above college algebra). I did not get placed right into Precalculus and was put into a two semester class (trig and precalculus Algebra) that covers all of the material a one semester precalculs class covers. I will be taking Calc the start of senior year.</p>
<ol>
<li>“Even if you were to get into a BS/MD program, most will not let you into med school if you don’t keep a minimum GPA.”</li>
</ol>
<p>But I thought most colleges don’t accept most DE credits. If so, then why would the classes I’m taking right now affect my college GPA?</p>
<ol>
<li><p>What medical experience are we talking about here (for the BS/MD program)? Volunteering, shadowing, research, etc…?</p></li>
<li><p>I will again try to contact pre-med advisers, but almost every adviser for anything always tell me that they cannot help me in “selecting my classes”, and that they look at what classes are offered to a student and then decide how a rigorous of a course load it is/was. Should I just stop asking about my classes, and continue plowing through with my best effort, or should I continue badgering advisers as to which classes I should take?</p></li>
<li><p>Would it be a very very unwise move for me to try and learn Calculus 1 over the summer, if I don’t get placed into Calc this upcoming semester after taking the placement test again? I’m thinking that maybe I can study Calc 1 over the summer and take the placement test again senior year and get placed into a high level math class? </p></li>
<li><p>I also posted this elsewhere, but does it matter how many AP exams I take my senior year of high school? If not, should I just continue building my base in all of my subjects for college (or study for AP’s myself)?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>You need to understand “credit”. What we are talking about are credits (points if you will) you need to accumulate to graduate. Some schools will give you credit for a score on an AP test or taking a DE class with a sufficient final grade. Those credits show up on your college transcript as if you took the classes from that college. For MEDICAL school, however, you will need to supply the transcript for every college you have attended and they compile your GPA from that and decide if the classes you took meet their requirements. A low grade junior year in high school for a DE class WILL impact your GPA for medical school. It isn’t about “credits” then, it’s about your GPA.</p>
<p>You also need to get over the AP test taking thing. It really doesn’t matter if you really are going to go to an Ivy or similar school. Look online at the schools you are planning on applying to an how or IF they even give credit for AP tests. Some subjects you MIGHT get a higher placement in a class but honestly, if you are going pre-med, you want to take the entry level classes anyway to boost your GPA. None of the schools our kids applied to will take AP credits in their major. As of right now, our kids are planning on taking ONE AP test this spring–out of 6 possible–BC Calc. For our DS, if he gets into his lottery school, the BC test will be used for placement. For DD, it means she won’t have to take Calc in college and frees up time to take an extra science class. After that, none of the other AP tests will give them credit so why bother taking them.</p>
<p>Also, for taking college level classes in the summer, be VERY careful with those. If they do not count on your high school transcript, it could change your incoming status when you do go off to college and could cost you thousands in scholarships. If you take too many credits that are not DE credits, you come in as a sophomore or higher and look like a transfer student vs an incoming freshman.</p>
<p>Also, going the Ivy route isn’t always the best route to take for medical school. You need to be a superstar and get the highest possible GPA. If you are going to be an average student at an Ivy, you aren’t going to be allowed to apply for medical school or you won’t get their support to apply. Find a school where you can do well, where you can shine, have research opportunities and stack your resume for med school. There are a lot of schools out there that have cooperative agreements with various medical schools that make the application process much easier. Look into those schools. The schools our DD applied to had very high acceptance rates into med school, most had 100% of the kids that applied get accepted first try. Don’t get caught up in the CC trap of you have to go to an Ivy to have any hope of a job.</p>
<p>@Steve, but just to clarify, these DE classes do affect my high school GPA as well as my college GPA, correct? </p>
<p>Yup, I’m done with the whole AP vs. DE and will just continue doing the best I can.</p>
<p>But my question for AP’s senior year is concerned with rigor and not credit. Should I study for multiple AP’s senior year (self-study) in order to show colleges I know my stuff or should I have done this in junior year since colleges don’t see my AP scores for senior year anyways…in other words, should I spend my time doing other stuff than studying for the AP senior year or study for AP’s?</p>
<p>Thank you for the help!</p>
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<p>It’s not your undergrad that will care so much about the B and it is possible to just not accept a credit if offered. It’s med school that will be the concern. Even when credits aren’t accepted by an undergrad, you still need to list all college classes on your med school application and it could be counted then. If it were Calc, this is what would happen. Since it’s Trig, I’m honestly not sure since that may not be considered a college level class. Those with more experience in med school admissions will need to answer this specific of a question. What isn’t in doubt is that you will want to work hard to get As in any future DE classes. What’s in the past is in the past. You can’t change it. Hopefully it won’t count, but I can’t guarantee it.</p>
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<p>Ok, gotcha. At our high school kids take College Alg (DE class) after Pre-Calc (high school course) if they want more brushing up on their Alg skills and skip it if they feel ready for Calc (either high school or DE). If Trig comes after College Alg, it really may count toward your med school GPA. Sorry… (but my thoughts aren’t definite!).</p>
<p>My pre-med middle son also did Pre-Calc his sophomore year, then opted to self-study AP Stats his junior year in order to delay Calc to his senior year. Then he opted not to do DE or AP, but just to “take” Calc to have a good foundation for it at his 4 year school. He could have taken the AP test in May (at a nearby Catholic school), and I’m pretty sure he would have scored well, but he opted not to as there was no need. He didn’t want the credit. It worked out very well giving him an easy class (easy A). He still had to WORK in college in the class (esp since they don’t allow graphing calculators at his school for this class and there were more difficult questions than the high school course), but definitely not as hard as if he’d never seen it before. Some of his peers who opted to skip first semester or first year Calc due to AP scores openly told him they regretted it as they missed As. It can be tough getting used to the “new normal” at college and an easy class might be boring, but for pre-med, it’s not a bad thing. The A and the foundation are worth it IMO. </p>
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<p>As mentioned before, MED schools care about the GPA - not undergrad. They count all college courses even those taken while DE in high school. My guy has credit for none of his DE classes, but med schools will still count his 3 As into their GPA calculations.</p>
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<p>The simple answer is yes. They will be looking for all of these. A med school admissions (decision-maker) person told folks (group session) they are looking for students who have been so involved in medicine in some way, shape, or fashion that they know they are certain the med field is for them. She said most who apply are just looking for an easy way into med school and they see right through that. Most of the latter have so little experience that they don’t really know if med school is their path or not and she felt they needed the college time to determine that. They want to see extensive volunteering, shadowing, working as much as possible in medical related fields to where you get to see it all (all you can), the good, bad, and ugly. She said very, very few make the cut out of oodles of applications. You also will need very high stats of all sorts so they feel you can actually do med school…</p>
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<p>I’d simply ask the pre-med person what they are looking for in a successful candidate for their BS/MD program. That info might even be available on their web site (check first!). Just don’t worry if it says AP as admin will realize your school doesn’t offer it. Since you’re a junior, any AP test you self study for this May would also show up and could work in your favor if you get 5s - esp if you mention you self-studied somewhere (sign up soon in Jan at a school who offers the test - you need to contact the school - collegeboard doesn’t do online sign ups for AP). Any AP taken senior year is worthless unless you’re doing it for credit. You’ll be accepted and know where you’re going before you even take the test, much less get results.</p>
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<p>That would sound like a great idea to me. You can utilize videos on Khan Academy (for free) to help you - just get a book - preferably a Teacher’s Edition if you can find it - since you’re self studying. Just don’t keep/use the Teacher’s Edition when you take the class if they use the same book at that could get you in some real trouble - which is far worse than the B. An alternative would be just a regular book and Student Solutions Guide if one is made.</p>
<p>Hope that helps!</p>
<p>Very few, maybe a handful, college look at AP scores for admissions. The AP is nice to have on your transcript to show you took hard classes, however, “most rigorous” only comes from the counselor’s report. You need to find out if your guidance counselor will check that box for you when she/he sends over your transcripts and school report.</p>
<p>As for your DE credits counting for high school credits, I don’t know, that is up to your high school to decide. I know in our district, any college classes taken in the summer do NOT count for high school credits.</p>
<p>As for studying for the AP tests, it depends, will the college you attend accept those tests for credit and free up your schedule to do other classes? I can’t answer that for you. You will have to look into that yourself because every college is different. </p>
<p>If you were MY child, however, I would NOT have you take classes at the CC and take classes at a 4 year college instead. I don’t know if that is an option for you or not—but, then again, our kids wouldn’t have been in a high school that didn’t offer AP’s either.</p>
<p>Don’t skip Calc due to AP even if you were to take the BC exam and get a 5. The undergrad may very well allow this (many do). Many med schools will not. They will want to see XX credits in college level math Calc 1 or higher. You’ll just have to do the higher classes. Stick with entry level… unless you were to need something else anyway for your major. You could just opt to limit your med school applications to those that don’t care about Calc, but why limit yourself this early?</p>
<p>Plus, I assumed you were going to try to self-study over the summer to be more prepared for Calc senior year rather than taking a summer cc class. If I was incorrect, then I agree with Steve - DON’T do it. Summer cc classes in pre-req classes are REALLY frowned upon by med schools.</p>
<p>@Creekland, where to begin? You’ve helped me TREMENDOUSLY and I wish you and your son the best. You have really clarified a lot of questions that had been buggin me the past couple of days.</p>
<p>Now as for the self-studying Calc, I’ll be doing it at home myself. Not at CC.</p>
<p>I decided that I won’t be studying for AP’s senior year, and will just work to get better scores on my SAT subject tests and the SAT itself.</p>
<p>Personally, I don’t care for any credit. I am just worried about my GPA and what admission officers would classify as rigorous". I would be perfectly fine re-taking any classes that I took during DE again at a 4-year university.</p>
<p>Quick question: Should I not take any (science) core classes (Biology, Chem, etc…) at CC during DE? Is that a terrible idea and do med schools hate that?</p>
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<p>I don’t think we’re talking about admissions here. The OP has a good GPA and SAT for admissions. They are wondering about going for the super competitive BS/MD. For those, any plus is a good thing. Our school does not offer AP (except for AP Euro the rest are DE). Students get accepted many places without issue. However, those going for super competitive anything many times do other things on their own to show dedication. I, personally, think lack of AP does make the difference sometimes. Anyone going for super competitive anything needs to do extra.</p>
<p>FWIW, our school offered AP back when we moved here. They dropped it in favor of DE (easier) over the past 10 years. We can’t just up and move our entrenched Engineering business to go to a different school district and we aren’t Catholic, so it didn’t occur to us to send our kids there.</p>
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<p>Do NOT take them - yes it’s horrible - and yes, it’s med school, not acceptance to undergrad, where it will hurt you. My son took Microbio at the cc (DE), got his A (only 4 As were given in his class, so study!), and med school admissions folks tell me that is fine. It’s just the pre-reqs you should avoid. They want to see potential students take on the competition at their 4 year school and do well in the weeder classes. It’s a trait they are looking for.</p>
<p>Define which school you mean for “core” classes. If you are taking Bio or Chem at the CC to substitute AP Chem or AP bio in high school, yes, take those but RETAKE them in college once you get to your 4 year school. If you are trying to get out of taking them at the 4 year school, do not do that.</p>
<p>@Creekland, then I’m totally lost as to which classes I should take senior year. I mean completely lost. I had been planning to take “hard” courses senior year at CC (sciences), but it seems that is a terrible idea. Now, I know you, or anone else for that matter, cannot walk with me hand in hand through this process, but maybe a schedule of what your son took senior year or even junior year (second semester) would be very helpful? Now, I know this is asking too much, but I’m hoping you have the list or something saved so you can just copy and paste it?</p>
<p>I cannot express enough of my gratitude in words to everyone who has helped me in this thread (especially Creekland and SteveMA). I greatly appreciate your help!</p>
<p>Middle sons classes:</p>
<p>9th grade:</p>
<p>Algebra 2
Biology
English - American Lit
American History
Spanish 1
PE/Health
Wood Shop
Music History</p>
<p>10th grade:</p>
<p>Pre-Calc
Chemistry
English - World Lit
World Geography
Spanish 2
PE/Driver’s Ed
Art History</p>
<p>11th grade:</p>
<p>Stats w/AP Test = 5 (self studied, so can’t call it AP Stats)
Microbiology (DE)
Bio + Chem (both AP level - half credit each over 2 years)
English - Great Books
Spanish 3
Effective Speaking (DE) - VERY worth it for nice interviews later 
PE/Wellness (nutrition focus)</p>
<p>12th grade:</p>
<p>Calc - AP level of rigor, but no test nor official AP designation
English Comp (DE)
Psych w/AP Test = 5 (self studied again)
Physics I + II
Finished Bio + Chem as per 11th grade
Spanish 4
Gov’t/Econ (half credit each)</p>
<p>Two self-studied APs (5s), three DE classes (all college level As), high stats, nice LORs from his college profs, nice extra curriculars (state chess champ + youth groups including a bit of volunteer work and work with dad) all added together = plenty of acceptances, merit aid at all schools, and he’s now at his first choice school and is doing very, very well.</p>
<p>He did not try for BS/MD. He knew he didn’t have enough medical ECs. He did not try for any Ivy as we wanted merit aid. Ivy is not necessary for med school success. ;)</p>
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<p>Well, I already will have taken Biology and Chemistry, so I’m not sure if I should take any science courses at CC. In a way I will have done 4 classes of biology and chemistry by the end of senior year. I find that to be way too redundant and boring. </p>
<p>So is that a yay or nay?</p>
<p>If you already have high school credit for a biology and a chemistry, don’t take more. Take a physics class if you can. If you are looking to fill a science spot, take anatomy and physiology. You should retake this in college but it’s so important to know this well in med school that taking one for a high school class is helpful.</p>
<p>Our kids have the following for senior year:</p>
<p>AP Calc BC
AP Physics
AP Lit
AP Psych
Band
Spanish (4000 level college class)
AP Econ-PE (required)-study hall last trimester</p>
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<p>Well, I was thinking I should probably take physics senior year, but it’ll just be honors physics since that’s all my school offers. So would it be better to take AP Physics through FLVS or honors chemistry at my school?</p>
<p>I agree with taking Physics senior year. You’ll want a Physics background before attempting it at college. As to which one to take? The most in-depth option you can get an A in.</p>
<p>Keep a Campbell’s Bio book and Zumdahl’s (sp?) Chem book with you for personal reading. Where my son attends school, at least some of those who took Bio/Chem in 9th + 10th grade and never touched it afterward had issues in the weeder class simply because they had forgotten so much. Note, he’s at a Top 30 Research U, so the Bio/Chem 101 classes are tougher than at many other schools. This will be similar at other top schools. They pretty much expect AP level content to be mastered already as most kids have done so.</p>
<p>Anatomy is also a good idea. Does your school offer it? Ours does.</p>
<p>I would just take the honors class at your high school. Not worth chancing your GPA. Again, make an appointment with your guidance counselor at your high school and ASK him/her if he/she will mark “most rigorous” on your transcript. That is all that is important for your college applications. I can’t see why they wouldn’t mark that but you want to confirm that.</p>
<p>Basically, senior year take a social studies, math, science, English and a foreign language. After that, whatever electives interest you. Take AP if you can, if not, take the highest level class your school offers. Take your college classes in the social and English so they don’t mess up your GPA in the sciences for college, but still get A’s in those for your overall GPA.</p>