Narcissists, do you know any?

other things that have helped when dealing with him:

  1. I stopped caring about his opinion many years ago. Happened around the same time that he shipped all of his & my mom’s mementos of the 39 1/2 yr of marriage together to my house. Even sent me back the baby pictures I’d given him & my mom of my kids. like he was erasing us all from his life so he could move on with Replacement Wife (who was 1 of my mom’s closest friends; they started dating 3 mo after my mom died + my dad tried to add her to his medical benefits at work claiming that my mom’s friend, who was still married at the time, was his domestic partner).
  2. there’s a lot of stuff in our day to day lives that I don’t share with him.
  3. got some therapy
  4. watched a lot of Dr Ramani
  5. learned several years ago to accept that this IS how he will always be. There IS NEVER GOING TO BE a “Oh but maybe this time will be different/better.”
  6. learned to embrace & accept that just because you are related to somebody does NOT mean that you have to put up with their games.
  7. learned to ignore all of the flying monkeys of well-intended relatives who’d make excuses for his ridiculousness. JUST IGNORE the people who say stuff like “Oh but he’s your DAD! You can’t just NOT go visit him!” Yes, I can. Watch me. If YOU care about it so much, YOU go visit him. That always shuts the person up.
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Although I am not qualified to officially diagnose, I believe my BIL is one (maybe you’ve read my story about him in the “Wedding Moms & Dads” thread). After glancing at the article MWolf posted, I am even more convinced. I have many more stories about him over the years but one that particularly stands out is that he used to randomly call me to give a laundry list of faults that he thought my husband had (while throwing in some jabs directly at me), usually after we had turned down his latest request for money to fund his foundering business.

We deal with it by having 700 miles between us and no contact. It’s going to be a S.S. when my MIL passes and my husband (as executor of her estate) has to distribute the assets.

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There are different types and degrees of narcissism. Malignant narcissists are the worst of the worst. Scary and dangerous. Vindictive. A malignant narcissist will never stop seeking revenge for even imagined wrongs or slights. Never let a malignant narcissist know what you want/desire as a malignant narcissist will go to unimaginable measures to deny another his or her desire.

Common in all forms of narcissism: Empathy does not exist in the world of narcissists. Must be the center of attention.

In some situations, it is easy to simply avoid the narcissist, but for those with a narcissistic partner, parent,or boss, it can be a situation requiring therapy.

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Any way MIL can be persuaded to have a non immediate family member as executor? Close friend? A cousin/niece she’s close to?

I don’t think so - she is very funny about her money/assets (even though she would not be in the picture at that time). Plus, agreeing to be an executor is kind of a big ask. My H recently did it for my mom’s estate and it was very time consuming.

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Agree. It’s not hard to get the info from the source. Definitions and general approaches are easy searchable –I see this useful, not trivial thread, as being about personal experiences and observations.

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Per the Mayo Clinic:

Key DSM-5 Diagnostic Criteria (5 or more required):

  • Grandiosity: Exaggerated self-importance, talents, or achievements.

  • Fantasies: Preoccupation with unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.

  • Belief in Uniqueness: Believing they are “special” and can only be understood by high-status people.

  • Need for Admiration: Excessive requirement for praise and attention.

  • Entitlement: Unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment or automatic compliance from others.

  • Exploitation: Taking advantage of others to achieve their own ends.

  • Lack of Empathy: Unwillingness or inability to recognize the feelings and needs of others.

  • Envy: Frequently envying others or believing others envy them.

  • Arrogance: Haughty, disdainful, or patronizing behaviors/attitudes.

I worked with a woman who exhibited 3-4 of these traits. She was quite possibly the most difficult, annoying colleague I’ve ever encountered. Technically, not a narcissist, though.

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Pretty sure a lot of the current tech billionaires meet the criteria.

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There are a lot of similarities between narcissism and high functioning autism (formerly aspbergers). Particularly a lack of empathy. I think many of the tech billionaires are on the spectrum.

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However, difficulty with empathy does not necessarily mean that someone (on the autism spectrum or not) has any of the other narcissism characteristics.

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I know a number of people on the autism spectrum. Many of them are empathetic.
I think too much money has contributed to some people’s narcissism.

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Me too, including my C26, who if anything is too empathetic- but I can also see that inability to read social cues can come across as lack of empathy. However, there is a massive difference between not appearing to be empathetic and actually lacking empathy.

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And someone on the spectrum who is weak with the “etiquette” piece of social skills is often a HUGE empath when it comes to actually caring about other people, doing for others. They may ask blunt questions (strangers may perceive this as rude) but are the kindest, most generous folks you know.

I don’t think combining spectrum with narcissism is a helpful construct AT ALL. Being polite doesn’t mean you care about someone else’s feelings- you’re reading from a script.

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How do narcissists become successful in society (social life, business, politics, etc.), given that their characteristics seem to be seen negatively generally? Is it that many other people like these characteristics? Or is it that they are good enough at something that makes them valuable enough to others that the others put up with the narcissism? Or is it that some others find them easy to manipulate and therefore useful for their purposes?

In some fields, some aspects of the narcissist personality is helpful when starting out.

Climbing the corporate ladder- in some organizations, never backing down from a fight is perceived as a super power (at least in some situations). Being supremely confident in your own ability and judgement. Type A energy and extreme focus on work.

Later on these things become problematic. But if the person has become successful– and widely acknowledged to be skilled– getting rid of them is hard. I’ve had CEO’s say things like ‘She’s a total PIA to work with but her numbers say it all”. Or “his team dislikes him, but nobody outworks him and he gets results”.

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Something narcissists in fact do very well…

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Narcissists can be exceptionally charming etc when it suits them.

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My now deceased fil had at least seven of these.

Not sure of the count for mil’s new husband - I haven’t been around him enough to say. But, it seems narcissists might be her, “type.” Not sure what that says about her.

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Low self-esteem, conflict avoidant…. stop me when I get there.

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Another thing my narcissist dad does a lot is tests people. Like, he’ll test your loyalty. But he doesn’t actually tell you that he’s doing that. He’s babbled about it to both my sister & I many times, but about other people who he’s going to test. We 100% know for sure that he tries to play the game with us, too.

And his loyalty tests are ridiculous and unnecessary. They’re based off of his warped sense of societal rules (you know, the rules where there’s 1 set of rules for him and another set of rules that everybody else has to follow). It’s all very sneaky, underhanded, passive-aggressive, and manipulative.

Once somebody doesn’t pass his loyalty test, then he stops love bombing them and puts up a big front like he’s going to drop them like a hot potato, totally cut contact, etc.

…which he then does for awhile…until then his need for attention becomes overwhelming and then he’ll resume communication with the person. This usually coincides with him having burned bridges with other people, too.

As a result, he’s put my sister & I on time outs regularly over the years. However, she & I do not see it as a punishment. It’s more of a relief. We get a temporary vacation from it.

When we were all in the throes of grief after my mom died, he’d call my sister & I daily and talk about himself for over an hour. Never asked how either sister or I were doing, how we were holding up. It was all about him. We later learned that he did this to other people he knew, too, during that same time period.

He’s gone to therapy repeatedly periodically over his entire adult life but none of it ever seems to stick. Sister & I think that at this point, if he IS seeing a therapist, it’s basically to have a paid audience of somebody who WILL listen and pay attention to you.

He’s also a really really bad liar. You can spot it from a mile off. He has a certain way of speaking that changes when he’s telling a lie (tone & other non-verbals change). Whenever we’ve caught him in lies, he never apologizes. He’s more sorry that he got caught.

On what would have been my parents’ 40th wedding anniversary, I was getting baptized at church. Really big deal to me. Invited him to attend in person. He declined. Offered for him to watch online (the services were broadcast online). He said he’d attend online. Found out after the fact that he did not watch the services that day…he’d gone house hunting with then-still-married girlfriend (aka my mom’s former friend) instead. Another time, he & girlfriend were a 1/2 mile from my sister’s apartment in her city…he & girlfriend were sight seeing there that day. He was there for 4 days, not once called my sister to suggest to get together. She found out after the fact when he accidentally blurted out that they’d been in her city the prior weekend.

No apology on that one either.

Another time when my kids were in elementary school, he promised and we made plans to go to the San Diego Zoo with him. He was going to be in CA at the same time we were. Picked a date & he was going to meet us at the zoo. Didn’t call me for 6 wk prior. didn’t answer my phone calls for 6 wk after that either. thought he’d dropped off the face of the earth. He never showed up. Went totally incommunicado. My kids thought the reason he didn’t come is because they were bad kids and they’d made him mad.

The reason he didn’t show up?
His wife’s dog had died 6 wk prior.

He didn’t come to D24’s HS graduation either. Reason that time was because wife’s dog had been under the weather. Meh, ok, whatever. By that time, our GAS (give a sniff/care) meter had broken with him.

Dealing with a narcissist can be a lot of exhausting work. With my dad, it’s like having to deal with the emotional maturity of a 5 yr old. Whoever he’s roped into the role of the soother/caretaker/whatever you want to call it…that person has to anticipate his needs all the time, constantly stroke his ego and tell him how awesome & amazing he is, listen to his repetitive talk about his insane conspiracy theory reasons of why he thinks people are doing this or that (he always links it back to himself and in his head everybody has an underhanded negative ulterior motive to everything they do). Sometimes you just want to tell him, “JUST SHUT UP ALREADY!”

My sister & I deal with it by becoming super boring people to him. Therefore, he no longer seeks us out to feed his narcissistic needs. He looks elsewhere for that. It’s never enough with him.

As he has aged, he has not coped well AT ALL with not being the hero anymore at work. He loves to tell tales about his glory days in the workforce. And at this point, all of that ended 15-16 yr ago.

People who meet him at first think he’s charming, a great conversationalist, etc. But if you pay attention to his conversation style, the ONLY reason he ever asks somebody a question about themselves is to use it as a means to continue talking about himself. And because MOST people are polite, he gets away with it.

I now have a very low tolerance for manipulative passive-aggressive behavior. I’ve found it to be much easier to spot this in other people, which helps me to politely avoid them and not get sucked into their vortex. :slight_smile:

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