Need Help ASAP! Bryn Mawr College [$5k] v John Jay College of Criminal Justice (CUNY) [$0 if commuter]

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Hello! This is my first post on this site, if I leave any information out, please let me know so that I can go back and include it.

A little about myself, I am a first generation low income college bound student that lives in New York City, and I am deciding between Bryn Mawr College or John Jay College of Criminal Justice. If I commit to Bryn Mawr, I would major in Law and Legal Studies with a minor in Philosophy and Comparative Literature, and If I commit to John Jay, I would major in Law & Society and double minor in Philosophy and English or History and Law.

I have plans of attending law school after graduation. I’m aiming for T14 law schools, so I want to keep finances and legal opportunities and internships in mind. I know that it may be to early to think about, especially when I’m not even committed or in college yet, but I think I should to take it into consideration when deciding where to go for undergrad.

Starting off with the finances, Bryn Mawr is around 91k, however, I was given a very generous scholarship that basically covers almost everything. I’m still left with a gap, and attending would be around 4.8k-5k each year, including tuition, meals, and housing. My parents said they would contribute about 2k for only one semester each year, and that I would have to take out loans or get a job to pay it off for the following semester every year. My family is low income, and it’s uncertain how much my parents might be able to contribute if their employment status were to ever change, or if an emergency were to happen. I also have braces that are still getting paid off and I’ll have to commute to and from New York every month.

On the other hand, John Jay is about 23k each year, that includes tution, housing, and meals. I choose to be a commuter student and stay home, FAFSA, the Pell Grant and other scholarship money will cover all of my tuition, 6k, meaning I would be attending for free. I might have some left over scholarship money to buy essentials such as a laptop, books, and even save up. Dorming is out of the picture as it ranges from 11k-22k a semester, and that’s way above our budget.

Moving onto the schools, Bryn Mawr is a small historically women’s college located in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. It has a close tight knit community, and students are allowed to take classes at Haverford, Swarthmore, and UPenn. Bryn Mawr is focused on STEM and medical research, and while there are opportunities for students seeking careers in law, it is not as abundant. However, Bryn Mawr does have research opportunities for those in the humanities, which is something that I am interested in intellectually, but not career wise. Not going to Bryn Mawr feels like doing a de-service towards things that I may actually enjoy learning about, and missing out on that prestigious liberal arts curriculum that I want.

John Jay College is a large school part of the CUNY system in New York city known for its strong forensic science program, however that’s not its only focus. Many students that graduate from John Jay have opportunities and internships in law, and have been accepted and attend prestigious law schools around the country. Career wise, John Jay is a good fit for me. It is a liberal arts school which is something that I like however it’s not recognized for that. Many students that attend John Jay are computer students, so it is missing that school spirit and tight knit community that I want.

I think that this division boils down to the possibility of having to stay home or jeopardizing future career. I live in a multi-generational immigrant home and sometimes it feels suffocating living with everyone and not having a space to call my own. I’ve always dreamed of having my own independence in college, learning new things, exploring the world on my own. If I don’t leave, I feel like I’ll grow resentful and despise my family because of the fact that I didn’t leave. Bryn Mawr, is a 2 hour drive from where I live and is the most affordable thing to being independent.

Many of my teachers have told me to take the leap and leave, but I don’t want to take that financial risk. I don’t really see a future at Bryn Mawr, its unpredictable, new, and a bit intimidating, but I feel like I’ll grow so much as a person, and get to live in a space with other ambitious people. On the other hand I see a tangible future at John Jay, and have safety and familiarity especially career wise, I know what I want to do, and have a vast network here.

I’m probably thinking about this too much, but I would really appreciate some advice. Decision day is around the corner, and I have an idea of where I would most likely attend. I just need some words of wisdom, or suggestions that I could take. Thanks.

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Why is this? For your braces? When will they come off?

Congrats on two great options. You are right to think about further schooling (forget top 14 but law school likely won’t have aid opportunities like undergrad) - but law school will care about your gpa, test score and today at top school - work experience or post undergrad activities (can be a service program, etc.).

I would love for you to Bryn Mawr - because the experience would be wonderful. But there is no question that there is risk there. You can take the small government loan - but the issue is that it has to be paid back. With law school, you can only borrow $200K total (which is way too much) but also only $50K a year - so a 3 year law school, $150K - which likely won’t be enough. The $200K total includes undergrad loans - but you won’t borrow $27K (the max) - so you’ll be under the limit. Bottom line - loans are bad - they have to be paid back with interest and they could potentially take away choices you make.

I don’t think this is the case. I think your career is jeopardized regardless due to lack of funds but there are law opportunities out there but you may have to change your sights. I know a student who got a full tuition at Miami, but had to turn down no $$ given Vanderbilt. I also know a student who went free to UF but was a UF undergrad and they wanted him bad.

I agree with your teachers - but you need to be open to it. I’ll disagree that BM is a STEM oriented school but when you are at BM and Haverford, there will be a financial divide - you will have very wealthy but then others like yourself. You are clearly uncomfortable going to BM - but going away gives you a chance to grown and learn and mature. I mean, you applied there for a reason, right? You wouldn’t have applied if you didn’t have interest. But - this only works if you go in with an open mind.

I’d say this - John Jay is the safe bet. But is it the right one?

I’m betting on you - and if BM is $5K a year, between your parents giving you $2K and perhaps a summer job, etc., I’m thinking you can do well. But - there will be cost to go back to the city and more. And you have to be ready to leave home.

Either way, you can do very well. And don’t lock yourself into law today. Get to college, especially at BM, and explore - there might be more things out there you don’t even know about.

Best of luck.

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Bryn Mawr could be a life-changing experience – if the finances work. The education at Bryn Mawr (and Haverford) would be excellent, with small classes, dedicated professors, and intellectually engaged classmates. BMC is not a STEM school but rather has invested in improving its STEM offerings to provide well-rounded educational opportunities. It sounds like you would need $3k+ plus a year, which is possible with a summer job, work study during the school year, plus small loans. Sit down with your family, go over the finances realistically, to see what the gap in funding is and you could meet it. Budget for travel to and from campus, books etc. (keeping in mind, for ex., that taking NJ transit to Septa is much more affordable than Amtrak).

Bigger picture – don’t focus on pre-law studies anywhere, the best preparation for law school success is reading, analyzing, writing, and talking about complex material, whether that is philosophy, literature, or something else entirely. Law-related internships during undergrad are not particularly important – what matters more is having some work experience between undergrad and law school as applying “KJD” (no break between college and law school) is more difficult.

Congratulations!

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I also vote Bryn Mawr, and also because I believe it will be life-changing.

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I also suggest that you try and make the leap and go to Bryn Mawr. Five thousand dollars for a summer job in nyc is easy, you can probably make more than that if you start now and work until you leave. An on campus job would also help bridge the gap and most LACs have students as TAs and tutors. Good luck and congrats!!

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Quick background, after an extended period of time as a Philosophy grad student, I pivoted to law school. I went to a top law school on a very good merit scholarship, clerked for a federal appellate judge, worked for the DOJ, did a short stint as a Visiting Assistant Professor at a good law school, then worked at a boutique litgation firm where I was eventually a partner with a focus on complex commercial litigation in the federal courts, and a side practice in government relations.

OK, so, a few things I feel confident talking about.

First, I think people considering law school do need to think about finances, and also being competitive for admissions. However, there is also the possibility of competing for merit scholarships. And finally, actually being as well prepared as possible for law school is very important, including because how you do as a 1L can actually put you on, or keep you off, certain paths to next steps.

Preparation for law school fortunately does NOT require any specific major, or much specific knowledge at all (other than a solid sense of US history and government consistent with a good general education). What does help, however, is developing your difficult reading and analytic writing skills as much as possible. Most law schools, and most lawyer jobs in fact, are reading and writing intensive, and often the texts in question are densely written. Being as prepared for all that as possible is a good idea.

OK, so, colleges like Bryn Mawr are typically excellent for law school preparation, not least if you actually major in something reading and writing intensive, including in Humanities. By the way, I definitely don’t think of Bryn Mawr as only a STEM college, and in fact per NCES data, only 111/320 graduating primary majors in the last cohort were in STEM, the others being in a variety of HASS (Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences).

Like, not that you have to do this, but Classics is a great major for law school, and Bryn Mawr has an excellent Classics program (in cooperation with Haverford).

Or in your case, maybe don’t minor in Philosophy or Comparative Literature, actually major in them. Those of us who did Philosophy before law school sometimes joke it is the longest, most expensive, and most effective LSAT preparation course available, but that is kinda true! Comparative Literature is also exactly the sort of major that would do a great job of preparing you for success in law school.

The last thing I would note is I would STRONGLY suggest not going to law school straight from undergrad. Indeed, I think you should be open to changing your mind about a legal career entirely, and this raises the very important question of where you would rather be if you end up wanting to do something else. Will you in fact feel free to do something else if that is what actually makes sense for you?

But even if a legal career remains your goal, taking a couple years out of school to learn more about the working world, possibly refine your sense of what you actually would want to do as a lawyer, and so on can be very, very useful. And it is an opportunity to build up some savings, or pay off modest amounts of college debt.

If all that sounds like I am basically making a case for Bryn Mawr–then yes, I am. I think it is a fantastic opportunity for you, and the cost is reasonable and should be manageable with some working during summers and possibly after college. John Jay has actually offered you a worse deal financially when you account for the value of housing and room and board, and then it is just much less flexible of an option.

So that’s my two cents, and please feel free to ask questions about why I suggested any of the above.

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No. Loans are a tool. Hammers aren’t “bad”- they are bad when you use them for a job that requires a wrench.

OP- a couple of suggestions.

1- Go through the Bryn Mawr financials. Some colleges overestimate the “cost of living” items. You are used to living on a budget- make sure they aren’t assuming that you’re buying $20 shampoo and eating three actual meals a day if breakfast for you is a granola bar and an apple.

2- Request a phone meeting with a financial aid officer (not the student who answers the phone). Get a handle on a few things- how easy is it to find a work study job on campus? If your parents financial situation takes a hit/family emergency, will they reevaluate your aid that semester, or make you wait until the next year? Some colleges maintain emergency funds (discretion of a Dean) which will provide grants for the things that come up in real time- your glasses break and you need to buy a new pair, you need to see an allergist ASAP which is an off-campus health event and not covered by your insurance, etc. This will provide you with some assurance that you have a financial cushion that your family cannot provide for you.

3- At that same meeting, ask if your package will stay the same (increasing to cover the costs which will go up) if you request a gap year. The logic is that you’d get a fulltime job, live at home (yes, I know that stinks) and save up enough to cover both your own “self help” contribution, plus eliminate the need for the loans.

I agree that Bryn Mawr could be life-altering- professionally, intellectually, socially. And I do NOT agree that loans are bad. They made my education possible (but I’m not first Gen to college) AND my spouses (first Gen). It took sacrifices to pay them off, no question. But the payoff has been enormous. And since I come from a refugee/immigrant family, I grew up observing that education is the ONLY thing you carry with you if/when you leave, flee, relocate. The house and valuables stay behind. The government can seize your assets. But nobody can take away your intellectual capital.

John Jay is a solid backup plan if the financials do not work out at Bryn Mawr. But I would not be quick to turn down the Bryn Mawr offer just because loans need to be paid back. You are investing in yourself. You are used to cutting corners economically and do not have expensive tastes which you will indulge in college. Take those thrifty habits and see if you can work out the math.

Good luck! Rooting for you.

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Please read the context of what I wrote -

  1. I suggested Bryn Mawr but noted OP would have to want to take the leap (because it seems they are fearful)
  2. i pointed out the government loan limits even with law school

Yes, loans are bad - in my opinion - in general. This will always be true.

But I also suggested in this case, I’d love for them to go to BM, to stretch themselves, and noted a summer job as the delta is small.

Please don’t twist the message presented.

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My feelings on loans is the federal loan limits for undergrad are actually well-calculated to be reasonable for someone who goes from college into a professional career. I tend to get much more wary about families taking out a lot more than that for undergrad. And of course if you can get your best possible college experience with no loans, that’s great. But if your best possible college experience would require an amount of loans within the federal limits, and you are planning to be a professional, then I don’t see that as inherently a bad idea.

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This 100%. I want to basically repeat every point that @Midwestmomofboys just made. First, you want to focus on what’s going to prepare you for success in law school, both as a student and as a job-seeker. Nothing that you study substantively in college will prepare you for law school. What will prepare you is rigorous development of your reading, writing, and analyzing skills. This gives Bryn Mawr a huge edge for all of the reasons that @Midwestmomofboys listed. Second, “legal internships” as an undergrad are not important and mostly unhelpful. As an undergrad student, you won’t have learned the critical skills needed to do actual legal analysis, so any legal internship that you can get as an undergraduate student will only be surface level. Law schools admissions offices, and future legal employers will not care even a tiny bit whether you got a legal internship in undergrad, as they understand what I just said above - that undergraduate students can’t do substantive legal work. They will be equally - and likely more impressed - by your getting internships in some other discipline or career area. Third, and most important, do not go straight through from undergrad to law school. Take at least one, and preferably two years off to get work experience. Law school admissions offices love work experience, and legal employers love it even more. Private sector law firm recruiting, as well as some government recruiting starts in the first semester of law school. Big Law recruiting starts the moment you set foot on campus, and is now basically over by the middle of your second semester in school. Students who are coming straight through from college are now at a massive disadvantage to the students who come in with substantive work experience.

The type of preparation you will receive at Bryn Mawr will pay long -term dividends in your the essential skills you will need for success in law school - and as a lawyer. And, it will also give you the tools to pivot to something else if you should change your mind - as many many students do once they’re in college and learn more about what’s out there.

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Not twisting. I don’t believe loans are bad. period.

Some people have difficulty with credit. Other people use it judiciously and it enables many wonderful things (like buying a house).

Perhaps you could post “in some situations, loans can be problematic” and leave it at that. In which case I agree.

OP-The government caps loans for a reason (so adults are not shackled for years by decisions they made at age 17). You sound like a mature and sensible person. So maybe a modest amount of debt is “worth it”- or not.

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I note several of us are giving very similar advice about paths to and through very selective law schools . . . and that is a good thing! I sense the big hangup for the OP was not having a clear vision for how Bryn Mawr would help someone along that sort of path. I think it is therefore well worth emphasizing what the most effective paths like that actually tend to look like, which then clarifies why Bryn Mawr is actually an excellent choice for the role it would play.

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Loans are not inherently bad. Most parents on this board used loans to buy their first house, if they aren’t still carrying a mortgage. Debt is not bad if one uses it strategically and with a clear understanding of how it’s structured and how you’ll pay it off. As a first generation, low income student, I took out the federal limits in the 90s which have actually not even kept close to the cost of tuition. I could have lived at home and went to UC Berkely and obtained a fine engineering degree with no loans. I have zero regrets. I paid my loans back within 5 years and it was an incredible investment in my future.

I think the difference between living at home and a student contribution of $5k is absolutely worth Bryn Mawr. If your parents can contribute, $2K, wonderful, but $5K is really not an intimidating number between some very light work study and a summer job. And I agree with the previous poster look hard at the assumed indirect costs. My kids paid nothing close to the estimates for books. They might also be baking in flights for students that aren’t a 2 hour drive from home. The federal loan would be the backup if there was zero parent contribution and you couldn’t find any job.

Best of luck OP!

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My perspective on loans is colored by the fact I know a bit about how corporations use them. And generally speaking, taking out loans to help finance capital investments, the sort of investments that are expected to provide their benefits not immediately but over long periods of time, is well-recognized as a potentially efficient financial practice.

Of course any such tool can be abused. But educational expenses that are steps along the way to professional careers are a well-recognized form of capital investment, and in my view that means a reasonable amount of educational loans can be prudent. I do think the case for these can become clearest when they are necessary for a terminal professional degree. But a modest allocation for undergrad as well, even when the terminal professional degree follows, can be fine in my view.

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Why would I write something I don’t believe? But let’s not go off tangent.

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Will you be able to engage in intense study if you remain in your current home environment ? Or will family obligations interfere with your ability to devote adequate time to study in solitude ?

With respect to expenses, have you considered getting a job on campus during the school year ?

It is wise to have a goal while in undergraduate school as that will likely cause you to be a serious student.

Both are solid options for achieving your goal of attending law school.

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OP, several posters have mentioned that you should check the indirect costs in the personal Cost of Attendance (COA) that Bryn Mawr has sent you because those are estimates and you can save substantial amounts of money by being cost-conscious. Here is the published, typical COA so you can see what people are talking about:

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All the Indirect Costs are included in what Bryn Mawr thinks you will pay (the COA) but that they do not bill for– that means, if you spend less than $1000 on books, less than $80-900 in travel, and less than $1000 in personal expenses each year (coffee, pizza, clothes, etc) – they those are savings that will reduce your 5k COA because they are not DIRECT costs. So, most people never spend close to the estimated textbook costs – my kids certainly didn’t – and even if you did, there are often extra grants or programs to help cover textbook costs that you can ask the financial aid office about. For travel, you should be close enough that you can take the bus or local trains between Bryn Mawr and your home – a huge cost savings over Amtrak or a plane flight that many students have to take. And if you live frugally, that $1000 of miscellaneous expenses can be whittled down to just things like shampoo and an occasional treat – because your meal plan will cover all your meals, so you don’t have to spend anything on food costs while you are on campus (I think that one of my kids ate all but a handful of meals on meal plan his entire four years in college because he liked the meal plan food and didn’t want to spend money on outside food).

So if we assume maybe $300 for books (buy used! or use the library or departmental resources), $100 for travel, and $200 for miscellaneous expenses, now your $5,000 COA is reduced by $700 for books, $800 for miscellaneous expenses, and some amount for travel (since I don’t know what your actual COA letter says for travel). So that $5,000 is now around $3,500 or less (since we don’t know travel expenses).

I think your biggest expense might be the required travel to NYC for your orthodontia appointments and that will take a lot of travel time as well. If that becomes a financial burden, you can make an appointment with one of the Deans of the college and they may be able to provide additional funds or other administrative help with this. The Deans want to help with problems like this – you just have to ask.

I hope this helps! I’m also hoping Bryn Mawr works out for you!

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This is one of the easier answers to college-choice dilemmas I can remember on this site.

$5k isn’t typically too much to come up with, and Bryn Mawr should be well worth the effort. BMC would definitely be my choice, for multiple reasons posted above.

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This is the fear I noted OP has to overcome. This is beyond the $$. I don’t think any poster agrees with what OP wrote but OP believes it. It’s hard to move away from home, from the comfort people have and know.

But in order to grow, sometimes you have to take that leap.

But I think this is the crux of why OP is leaning into John Jay, not the $$.

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Good point.

OP, sometimes the best things happen when you get out of your comfort zone.

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