Need Opinions: Jr daughter take Ap Hist or Fine arts perform grp? both same period

<p>I have a D now a junior (age 15) who loves the fine arts, but doesn’t plan to major in it, She pursues it because it is a passion of hers. She attends a fine art magnet school that also offers Ap and IB courses. At this point, plans to major in History because she loves history. Has taken summer school every summer to make room for the fine arts classes she takes during the school year. </p>

<p>Current GPA is 4.2 and she is ranked about 16 out of 500 students.</p>

<p>Freshman year: she took
Bio H
Algebra 2 H
choir
dance
spanish 1
Eng 1 H
She got a B in Alg 2 both semesters and b one semester in Bio</p>

<p>Soph year: she took
Chem H
Pre Calc H
higher level choir
intermed dance
Spanish 2
World Hist H
English 2 H
Got a B in Chem one semester, and B in Pre calc both semesters</p>

<p>This year, she is taking:
Calc H
Eng 3 H
Spanish 3
Vocal Ensemble
Dnace Company
US Hist non honors (because Ap US Hist conflicts with her dance and choir)</p>

<p>Took AP Euro History last spring as a sophomore, even thought she didn’t take euro hist, and got a 4 out of 5 (3 is passing for college credit)</p>

<p>Next year (senior year) she plans to take:
Eng 4 H
IB Spanish 4
Dance company
Vocal Ensemble
IB Global studies
and possibly Physics H
(she is maxed out on math since she is taking calc this year as a junior)</p>

<p>So here’s the problem:
Last spring D auditioned and got into a vocal ensemble choir (the highest level of the 7 choirs offered at her school) and performing dance group ( also admittance by audition only). . .she was elated that she got into both performing groups as that is something she was aiming for since her freshman year. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, this fall we find out that the AP US Hist is only offered 2 periods, 3rd and 5th. And her vocal ensemble is only offered 5th and her dance group is only offered 3rd, so if she takes the dance and vocal performance groups, she can’t take Ap US Hist. </p>

<p>My first thought was oh well, just take regular history. . .although she won’t get honors credit (therefore max of 4.0 instead of 5.0 for the class thereby lowering her GPA in comparision with her other honors classmates). . . she can still take --and probably will pass – the AP test. </p>

<p>Then came another bombshell. . .Yesterday I talked to the school’s IB coordinator and found out that if D doesn’t take AP US history this year, although she can still take IB Global studies class next year (which she was really looking forward to taking since she plans to major in hist), she can not take the IB test because it requires that she take Honors US history the year before – something about needing 220 school hours in the subject in order to qualify to take the test. Taking H World hist like she did as a soph doesn’t count because you have to be a junior to get IB credit and she took the World His class as a soph.</p>

<p>So my question to you Curmudge, Cal mom or other parents who already have kids in college. . .which is better? More honor courses or doing extra curricular courses that they are passionate about? </p>

<p>My opinion is to do the extracurricular since colleges want a well rounded student and I’d rather D be in the performing groups since she has been striving to be in them since freshman year, but my h thinks she should do AP hist and just take choir or dance but not both. Both The Ap US hist teacher and IB coordinator also thinks she should do the AP Hist class instead of taking 2 fine arts classes.</p>

<p>This D wants to attend UCLA, and is not really focusing on a private school or non-calif schoolat this point. As you know UCB and UCLA is a “crapshoot” any way you look at it, as the average admitted student to those schools has a 4.2, with only half of vals getting in. We are interested in getting merit scholarship for academics or extracurricular to whatever college she applies to.</p>

<p>I really don’t think her taking 1 or 2 more H courses will really make a difference (esp for the Ucs where they only count a max of 8 anyway. . .and D will have about 12 even without the AP US HIst) except that her GPA will be lowered because of taking less 5.0 classes than some of her other honors classmates. </p>

<p>I think focusing on doing extra curric that she loves and has been doing from grade school might be a better choice. But again, she isn’t going to major in dance or voice, she just loves doing both.</p>

<p>For those of you who might remember, I just had a D graduate last year who was a Nat Merit finalist. She choose to go to Baylor on a full tuition scholarship, and is quite happy there (at least so far). . . so I am pretty knowledgeable about the whole college process and trying to get merit aid.</p>

<p>So do you think it is better for d to pursue more extra curric because she loves them (she is NOT just doing them to use them just to add to college apps) or do more honors courses? Will taking the fine arts instead of AP US Hist (and not taking the IB Global studies test) really mess up her college chances? </p>

<p>Your opinions,please?</p>

<p>Do what you love - the rest will follow. If she doesn’t learn to do what she loves now, exactly when does that lesson come up in the curriculum? </p>

<p>Will it mess up her college chances? I’d be much more concerned about her putting off to never what floats her boat. It’s not like AP history is going away anytime soon. And, hey, you said she’s a history major, so what’s the rush?</p>

<p>but her US hIst ap teacher and the IB coordinator (the IB coordinator is also the instructor who teaches the IB Global studies course) both think that’s a wrong choice. For example, the hist Ap teacher today talked to D and really “encouraged” her to change her mind and take his course.</p>

<p>I don’t want to encourage her to follow her passions and then find out she messed up her chances of getting into UCla because of it. I agree that she should follow her passions esp since she auditioned for these groups and was selected based on her talent. </p>

<p>D and I talked about this today and D said she will make up her mind by the weekend. (school has been in session for one week)</p>

<p>One possible option to pursue - does the AP History teacher also teach the regular history in another period? If so, maybe the teacher will allow her to take the AP level while in the ‘regular’ history class by doing the extra work and taking the tests the AP class takes. She’d have to do a bit more on her own if allowed to do this but the class would ‘count’ as an AP on the 5 scale. I know this sounds unusual but I know of someone who did this at my D’s school (he’s now at Stanford).</p>

<p>I understand the idea of doing what she loves but she also is planning to major in history and is currently taking ‘two’ non academic classes. Maybe she could forego one of the voice/dance classes and do the AP history instead and pursue the voice or dance as an after school EC rather than a class. </p>

<p>The difference of one class of a 4 versus a 5 won’t make a huge difference in the GPA or class rank but it will make some difference. Since the UCs pay attention to the 10/11 grades for determining admissions, you can do the calculations to see how much of a difference it might make (assuming all A’s:) ).</p>

<p>Regarding merit scholarships - if this is very important to you, I suggest also applying at some of the other UCs. The competition for Regents scholarships (typically full tuition+books but not dorms) is fierce but is more fierce at Cal and UCLA than at, for example, UCD or some of the others.</p>

<p>Wow, cool arts school! At my daughter’s school they were each channeled into a “major”, so except for a couple of interdepartmental theater productions, singers sang and dancers danced but no one could actually do both at the same tme, at least not within the school.

I agree with your opinion, but not your reason. You should let your daughter decide (it sounds like she might have to give up on the IB diploma if she wishes to pursue her arts) but I would hope that she goes for the EC’s because she is obviously very talented and that is what she loves. It will make her happy to do it and you happy to watch her perform. </p>

<p>It may or may not help with college admissions, but she shouldn’t live her life to fit what colleges want. How often do we read of kids here who jumped through every academic hoop and still end up attending their safeties? The most-challenging-curriculum route is no guarantee of admissions in any case. I think she should pursue her passions and when it comes time to apply to colleges, choose to apply to colleges that will appreciate her for who she is and her talents.

What do the dance and vocal teachers think? As they say, to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. AP History teacher is always going to vote history; IB Coordinator is always going to vote IB-qualifying academics. </p>

<p>Here is my own daughter’s AP US History story: She couldn’t take AP US History because of the whole going to Russia thing and scheduling conflicts in senior year. She took Honors US History senior year; took the APUSH exam, scored 4, earning 3 units at her chosen college. She has another 3 units from the AP English language exam, another exam taken without the underlying course. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t worry – the strategizing is going to cause anxiety, but the choices are unlikely to make a significant difference. UCLA may or may not accept your daughter – I am sure she will also designate a backup UC choice when she applies, and get accepted to another campus if not UCLA. You shouldn’t place too much stock on the weighted grade, because your daughter could take APUSH and get a B. (That’s what my daughter did with the one AP class she had in 11th grade – I wanted to strangle her because the REASON she got the B was because she blew off important assignment to hang out with her boyfriend instead). As far as out of state, merit awarding schools - since you are looking for merit aid, you won’t be aiming for Ivies and elites, and you will be able to focus on colleges where her talents are valued. </p>

<p>Also, a prospective history major may enjoy a regular history class far more than the AP class. I don’t know about your daughter’s high school, but at my son’s school, the regular classes explored selected topics in depth, with all sorts of interesting assignments and projects, whereas the AP class was a mile wide and an inch deep with a lot of quizzes and focus on test prep. I think that the deep-study approach is more rewarding, that more information is retained, and that it is better for developing insight and critical thinking skills, even if it leaves the kids with some gaps. </p>

<p>Good luck! I’m sure your daughter will make the right decision, for her. I think the main thing she needs now is room to make it, without undue pressure from anyone, and with assurances that there is no wrong answer. If she follows her heart, she will be happy with the outcome. If she chooses to forego one of passions because of her own self-defined goals, she will also be happy.</p>

<p>mom of four, I definitely side with the opinion that she should take the performing arts classes and regular history. </p>

<p>I don’t know much about how EC’s are evaluated by UC’s. For most selective colleges EC’s are very important and honestly, just on a personal level I can’t think of anything more rewarding than performing arts.</p>

<p>Taking two performing arts courses IS risky and unconventional. My son was in a similar situation: he wanted to take both art studio and creative writing and he chose to “sacrifice” math and science to accomplish this. He still managed to fulfill his IB diploma requirements, though. </p>

<p>Because the arts are so much a part of who my son is he succeeded in getting into a selective college, despite (or possibly because of) his arts-heavy schedule. Again, I don’t know beans about UCLA, but I do know that many selective colleges actively recruit singers, dancers, actors and artists. Commitment to and accomplishment in the arts – even as a non-major – can be a considerable hook.</p>

<p>Whose rule is it that she can’t take the IB Global Studies exam without the prerequisites, the school’s or the IB organization’s? (It doesn’t sound like an official IB regulation, but I know they like rules . . .) If you find out that there is no official prohibition, then try a little harder to get a dispensation to take the exam. </p>

<p>I’m not clear whether your daughter is in the whole IB diploma program or just taking individual courses. Taking the IB Global Studies exam in order to gain college credit or acceleration vs taking the exam in order to get the diploma are two different issues. I can’t see the exam as being much of a factor in college admissions at all, though the diploma may be.</p>

<p>Good luck and let us know how she does.</p>

<p>Wow, I didn’t think momrath would agree with me! I thought my laid back parenting style would draw some opposition from some advocates of the “take the most challenging curriculum” approach. </p>

<p>I’m struck by this comment:

I think that really states the dilemma: “risky and unconventional” also is what sells, but the “risk” part is that you have no assurance whatsoever that it will sell. It is obvious to me in hindsight that the unconventional aspects of my daughter’s high school career are what got her into her reach colleges – but I still think it would be pretty dumb for anyone to follow such an unconventional path if their heart was set on attending an elite college. But when my daughter started down the path, the elite colleges weren’t even on the radar. </p>

<p>So there is a certain irony in all of this … which is why I go back to the feeling that the path best followed is the one that the kid chooses for her own personal fulfillment. Certainly no one should ever go down the “risky” path as part of a college strategy, because I imagine for every kid like mine who gets lucky there must be plenty of others who don’t. Part of the reason that my daughter’s risk paid off is simply that she targeted well in the end and is now at an elite college that is particularly fond of independent-minded women willing to take risks.</p>

<p>I’m wondering why the school would insist on her taking the honors history if she does well on the AP Hist test studying on her own. It just doesn’t make sense to me that an exception couldn’t be made during senior year for the IB course. I think a quick talk with the IB teacher (not the counselor) might be in order. Maybe a deal could be struck–a 4 on the APUSH test plus extra reading, something like that.</p>

<p>I recommend that your daughter stick with the fine arts class.</p>

<p>At any school where having AP US History and the IB stuff will make a big difference, the admissions rate is low and admissions decisions can be affected by the admissions officer’s mood, the phases of the moon, and the temperature in Scottsbluff, Nebraska.</p>

<p>I enrolled in AP US History 16 years ago. The workload was so torrential that I was forced to switch to regular US History after just a month. NOBODY cares about this “skeleton” in my closet today.</p>

<p>“…the path best followed is the one that the kid chooses for her own personal fulfillment.”</p>

<p>Agree 100% with calmom. I know OP asked for opinions from parents who’ve been through the process, & I have not. But I have a soph d who will be facing these questions in the next few years, as conflicts with performing & fine arts fitting into the AP schedule will arise. If a college seeks a robot kid who crams a schedule with APs while ignoring the arts & her passion & her creative spirit, it’s not the college I’d like to see her attend.</p>

<p>Plus, if your d scored a 4 on AP Euro w/o benefit of the actual class, I bet she can do the same on APUSH. She already has a few bs on her transcript, so she’s not the robot/genius type anyway. She sounds like a very, very talented smart kid who will come across just great as she begins the admissions process.</p>

<p>jhsu, your post brings back memories. Back when I was in high school (in the 60’s), I dropped honors English as a 9th grader against all advice, in a school that had a policy of never letting anybody into honors English except for the kids who were already in honors English. Depite that academic faux pas, I nonetheless got into my top choice university, as well as passing the AP English exam. So basically… it wasn’t that big of a deal.</p>

<p>And if I had it all to do over again, I’d do the same thing.</p>

<p>

I agree with this. You need to plan for the future but can only live in the present. Since she attends an Arts HS, I’m sure colleges would expect that she will have a performing arts-heavy transcript. I believe that kids should find a college that fits THEM, not fit themselves to a particular college.</p>

<p>That said, I do think it’s a risky path if you are really targeting UCLA. Aren’t they focused on GPA/SATs and rank? If this were my child, I’d try to get a sense about how important both ensembles were to her – is it possible to do just one? If it would make her too unhappy to give up one of them, then she should do both. But I think you should acknowledge that this choice may put her in a good position for a private school which evaluates students in a holistic manner, but may make it tough for UCLA. Another question would be, will the GC check off “most challenging curriculum” if she doesn’t do the IB?</p>

<p>I’m sorry to be the outlier here, but that’s how I see it.</p>

<p>Momof4
I’ve seen performing arts <em>classes</em> disappear from school after school, both public and private. The next step is that they become e.c.'s only, then soon after that they’re often history, no pun intended. There’s just been such an increasing emphasis on academics over performance opportunities in high schools. As the mother of an artist, I would die for more arts for her. </p>

<p>D was also in your dilemma, but for a diff. reason. (Same period offered for only one elective) Whole family struggled with it: we all agreed, take the art first, the art history later. However, this is last year that D. can take the art history (because of a teacher departure), and that is the ONLY reason we’re opting for the latter.</p>

<p>Performance opportunites allow a student to discover more “sides” of self. Both for herself AND for college admissions (no conflict here, i.m.o.) I think in your case the “performance” wins out. It is all those “sides” (dumb word, but you get the point) that enhance a focus on the college app & help define a student & distinguish her from the crowd. (Yes, even if no arts major is intended in college).</p>

<br>

<br>

<p>This worked for my D when AP Physics clashed with everything in her schedule.</p>

<p>

I’d note that the UC’s don’t take recs from the gc’s, and they make their own assessment as to strength of curriculum. So if UCLA it the top choice school, there will be no such thing as a form that asks about “most challenging curriculum”. What will happen is that the UCLA people will tally up the A-G courses and they will recompute a weighted GPA based on the coursework in grades 10-11, as reported by the student. They will also give extra weight, possibly, to an application if the senior year in-progress course array looks challenging. (You can find the factors that are considered in the “Comprehensive Review” process here: <a href=“http://www.ucop.edu/news/comprev/welcome.html[/url]”>http://www.ucop.edu/news/comprev/welcome.html&lt;/a&gt; ) </p>

<p>So all of this factors related what the GC thinks or will report simply don’t apply if the primary goal is UCLA or another UC campus.</p>

<p>Out of curiosity, Calmom, how does the proposed curriculum stack up for the UCs A-G requirements? My son only applied to private schools, so I really don’t know.</p>

<p>Well, you can check the A-G requirements on line, but almost any public high school in California is going to make sure that its college prep curriculum meets the requirements; in many districts the requirements for graduation mirror the A-G requirements. I think basically it is 4 years English, 3 years math, 2 years lab science, 2 years foreign language, 1 year fine arts, and I don’t remember what the history/social science requirement is. But the thing about the A-G requirement is simply that it has to be met-- and a regular class meets it as well as an honors class.</p>

<p>Here’s a link where it is all set out:
<a href=“http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/undergrad_adm/paths_to_adm/freshman/subject_reqs.html[/url]”>http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/undergrad_adm/paths_to_adm/freshman/subject_reqs.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I’d note that my daughter, also coming from an arts magnet, had only the minimal required math & science and was still accepted to UC Berkeley.</p>

<p>D already asked the AP Hist teacher if she could take the course independent study (she would still take the reg course but take all the Ap tests and Ap assignments), she was told no as it was too much work for the teacher.</p>

<p>We are already doing things a little unconventionally. For all my kids (this D is the second oldest), they were unchallenged in grade school and middle school. So they took math 1 - 2 years early which is why D started Alg 2 H as a freshman, and after this year, will max out on the math. As you can see in the original post, math is the only class that D pretty regularly gets "B"s in and probably, if she was only taking pre calc this year like the rest of her Honors classmates, she would have gotten all "A"s for math in high school (of course, the transcript doesn’t show that she is only 15 and alrealdy taking calculus). Taking math early also affects her GPA as all the high school math ( eg Alg, Geom) that she took in Middle school doesn’t count for high school units OR for grades–her transcript will just indicate “Pass” for those courses. Although I am glad we’ve challenged my kids in math early (that was about the only subject that we could accelerate them in), we realized that by doing so, that also will negatively affect their GPA, in that even though they got A in those classes, those “A” won’t show up on their high school transcripts.</p>

<p>I am hoping that D chooses to still be in the 2 fine arts ensembles. She plans to call friends for their opinions and evaluate this weekend, and make up her mind by Monday. Another factor is that if she decides to drop one of the ensembles, that may negatively affect her being able to take that class next year assuming she won’t have any scheduling conflicts like she did this year. (both fine arts teachers obviously don’t want D to drop their class).</p>

<p>I am relieved that UC don’t ask counselors if the student took the most rigorous coursework, because then ,my d would have to say no as she opted to add more fine arts instead.</p>

<p>Couldn’t you submit the MS reports showing those "A"s in math, as a supplemental piece of info? Also, I’d expect that she’d do well on the SATs, both I and II.</p>

<p>I agree that your D should take the classes that she loves. Having been through the college admissions process with 3 Ds already, including one who went to an arts h/s and who is pursuing it in college, I don’t foresee any problem with your D’s choice if she takes the arts classes. She is obviously an excellent student and the colleges will see that. My 3 girls all had extensive arts classes during their h/s years, even the two who chose other majors, and they all were accepted to very selective colleges. Best of luck to your D!</p>