New book Chasing Zeroes change your perception of Duke?

<p>I feel that Duke has been getting a bad rap thanks to the infamous “Duke porn star,” but I’ve been thinking lately about a (more credible) news item that’s done more to influence my perception of Duke (and many of its peer institutions). I picked up the new book Chasing Zeroes after hearing the author interviewed on NPR, and its portrayal of duke and elite schools has me reexamining what I’m looking for as I help my daughter find the right college. </p>

<p>I don’t mean to single Duke out, but Duke is the easy target here just because this is where the story takes place and where the author went to school. I’m always cautious to form an opinion based on what book, interview, experience etc. but sometimes a compelling story can make you see things in a new way. Anyone else read this book and see Duke and elite schools differently, too?</p>

<p>No. My experience at Duke does not match the author’s at all. There is definitely a faction that feels the need to be Wall St obsessed, but it’s by no means pervasive and is easily avoidable. I’d say that is the case at most top schools (where that mentality exists, but is only a certain contingent) unless you’re in a program that’s designed as a feeder to such firms such as ugrad at Wharton. Duke students pursue an incredibly diverse array of opportunities upon graduating. I felt no pressure to meet a certain mold and had plenty of friends studying economics too who went into varied careers. </p>

<p>This is like what, the 4th book written about Duke’s culture? The first being admissions confidential by Rachel Toor and I cant remember the other two. </p>

<p>I really hope people develop the wisdom to not choose a school based on a few student’s experience of the culture. </p>

<p>See above (10 char)</p>

<p>“The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.” Oscar Wilde. If Duke weren’t so good, no one would care about these books. It’s why people buy the tell-all books about Goldman Sachs and could care less about the tell-all books (if there are any) about Bank of America. Write on, dude!</p>

<p>I read that book based on a recommendation someone posted on the Duke CC threads. As a parent it was informative. I learned about some good things the author did and some bad things. The things I learned will help me advise my remaining college aged kids.</p>

<p>I did not get a bad impression of Duke at all. In fact it would be pretty crazy to draw conclusions about the whole institution based on the experiences of a few undergraduates. By the way, I was impressed with the author’s courage in writing the story.</p>

<p>Duke is VERY similar, essentially identical, to the other first tier national universities (and their liberal arts college counterparts). All are the domaines of exceptionally talented and driven kids (and, crucially, of their possibly even more driven parents). Utilizing approximate '18 Duke undergraduate application numbers to illustrate: 30+K candidates, 10 percent aggregate acceptance rates, and VERY few applicants who are not entirely qualified and would not do a fine job if admitted. This paradigm is equally true for the other “you fill in the numbers” elite national universities and LACs.</p>

<p>Because the students and their parents have such lofty expectations and because of legitimate financial considerations, undergraduates clearly are drawn to majors – and to immediate post-bachelors professions/professional schools – that meet both their objectives and their ego-desires: Wall Street, JDs/MDs/MBAs, consulting at the top firms, and so forth. There’s little “place for poets” is this pattern.</p>

<p>Is this the only option? Of course not; however, it is clear that admission to the best post-graduate programs and lifelong employment opportunities by the best, most lucrative firms/institutions favors individuals with at least one degree from an elite university. Therefore, teenagers and their parents have an important decision to consider: if that “dear son or daughter” wants a viable chance to clerk for a USSC justice or to attend Hopkins Med (etc.), then the many fine “non prestige” institutions have definite drawbacks. The real issue here is that very few kids and parents want to forego the “ultimate” career, affluence, and influence options when a child is only in his teens. While most Yale Law and Harvard Med graduates practice their professions precisely as those with JDs or MDs from the Ohio States and the Syracuses do, how many of us want to foreclose any potential possibility for our children while they are still in secondary school?</p>

<p>Finally, concerning Chasing Zeroes (which I have not yet read), the whole “elite education” paradigm is “wonderful fodder” for journalists. It sells, it’s controversial, it leads to television face-time, it includes key societal issues (class, affluence, race/gender, elitism/entitlement, and so forth), and it appeals to a wide audiences (those attending/aspiring to elite higher educational institutions identify, while the ire of those who affiliate with the MANY fine, but not necessarily prestigious, colleges/universities is stoked).</p>

<p>Isn’t it interesting – and extremely revealing – that Chasing Zeroes is being released near-simultaneously with this year’s undergraduate admissions decisions by many of the elite universities and colleges (late-Match). What better time to encourage sales, when parents and children are particularly self-satisfied, or angry, or disgusted, or disquieted? </p>

<p>Thus, Linda:, to summarize:

  • It’s not Duke alone, it’s the entire genre of first-tier, highly prestigious college and universities.
  • EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, it’s the children and their parents, who ardently aspire to attend them, that create this situation.
  • There are legitimate reasons to seek advanced education within the VERY SMALL group of higher educational institutions.
  • However, for many individuals, I suspect it may be more ego-gratification than actual advantage (remembering, for example, all those fine attorneys and physicians whose undergraduate and/or professional degrees are not from the Ivies, MIT, Stanford, Duke, UVA, Michigan, Northwestern, et al). </p>

<p>I’m actually starting to think that Chasing Zeroes is paying people to promote it-- do a search for a topic and most of it is posters asking if other posters have read it or recommending it to hapless other posters. I’ve yet to hear it be talked about on Duke’s campus at all.</p>

<p>Not a bad theory. The book is ranked around 271,000 on Amazon right now and has already been marked down two bucks. </p>

<p>Yeah, that does make sense. </p>

<p>OP here, and I’m appreciating all the great comments here (except the ones suggesting I was paid to post about the book. Really?). I hadn’t much thought about the whole “media vs. Duke” angle, but now i see why the school is such an easy target (especially post-lacrosse scandal). @TopTier I do agree that Duke is very similar to most elite schools–the conversation shouldn’t be about Duke, but about the education system in general. </p>

<p>I think @alicejohnson is being paid to be a cheerleader for Duke. </p>

<p>This is a real bargain for the University.
:wink: </p>

<p>Seriously. Net of tuition, I think my comp is about negative $60 per post. </p>

<p>I find it odd that people would comment on a book they have not read. The author is thoughtful and her points have merit. I contacted her and have attached her reply and my original correspondance:</p>

<p>I’m glad that my book was able to spark such meaningful questions and dialogue–that, after all, was the ultimate goal of telling my story. You’re right that as competitive as the modern campus may be, at least it’s more diverse and meritocratic than a few decades ago–as you point out, “Laura Newland from Alabama” never would have had those same opportunities before. As great as this diversity and meritocracy are, however, I think they would be more impactful if you took out the extreme financial pressures placed on students. If you can’t afford to get an internship, for example, or you can’t stomach the thought of hundreds of thousands in loans for med school, then are colleges really creating diversity of opportunity? There’s been a lot of progress to be sure, but there’s still this dark side of college life, which hopefully I shed some light on.</p>

<p>As for your daughter…I’m not a parent and I can only imagine how difficult it must be. All I can say is that, for the most part, I was given the freedom to figure things out on my own and I think I’m better for it.</p>

<p>All the best, and many thanks for the support. And I do encourage you to spread the word about my book!
Laura</p>

<p>Dear Laura</p>

<p>I just finished your wonderful and thought provoking treatise. You manage to encapsulate an engaging coming of age story within the greater context of the role of education and commerce in our nation. This, as you know, is a complex issue with profound implications to our children and society. You have effectively illuminated the topic and provided the groundwork for thoughtful consideration and debate. I will encourage my daughter to take note so that she may better understand and be prepared for the realities and choices she will soon face.
The dilemma for the thoughtful and loving parent, or mentor, seeking to enable our children is problematic. The mission itself is clear and straightforward: Empower our children to have the opportunity to lead productive lives filled with passion, satisfaction, love and happiness. However the path there and the correct guidance to give are clouded in ambiguity.</p>

<p>An underlying theme of your book urges for a re-evaluation of the role of higher education in our society. I sensed a longing for an idealized campus of yore; where education, for the sake of education itself, is encouraged and valued. Where ideas are discussed, philosophies explored, and intellects allowed to bloom. In such an environment, young adults are able to intellectually grow and mature in a natural and unhurried rhythm, free from the debilitating and counterproductive fears of “falling behind” in a race to nowhere. The implication being that such an environment will produce more thoughtful citizen leaders and a society where priorities and values seamlessly merge for the good. This is in fact the myth that is sold to the parent and the student alike in the glossy college brochures is it not?</p>

<p>But I question if such a world ever really existed in American higher education. It is easy to forget that The Ivy League was previously, and still retains a certain vestige as, the bastion of America’s elite where entrance was granted not through a meritocracy but through birth. These were finishing schools for our future leaders. A gentlemanly C was more than adequate and while genuine intellectual exploration and debate may have existed; more likely, the day to day revelry more closely resembled an Auburn tailgate than a French existentialist café. These were the individuals that filled the positions of our nation’s Capital and J.P. Morgan alike. Entrance was exclusive and no exceptions were granted.</p>

<p>The transformation to todays much changed reality is beyond the scope of this note. While true meritocracy may still yet to exist, suffice it to say that Laura Newland from Auburn Alabama would not have been interviewed by J.P. Morgan nor would she had received an offer from a Wall Street consulting firm that she chose not to accept. Accordingly, performance now matters and exceptionalism is demanded. You had the opportunity to relish your epiphany because the door of opportunity was still open and yours alone to shut. This brings me back to the central dilemma and irony facing the loving parent: We have two contradictory paths to balance.
On the one hand I too long for an intellectual and educational utopia for my children. I would like nothing more than for them to find and explore their passions in an organic and natural progression from curiosity to commitment. If they fall along the way, this too is good because it is how we react to failure, not our successes that teach us the most important lessons and builds true character. I want their lives to be of self-discovery where their victories and setbacks alike are their own.</p>

<p>On the other hand, competition begins at an early age and doors of opportunity shut definitively and quickly. Emma did not ask you to become a banker but when you approached her she only pointed out the normative truth: If you wish to become a banker the race has started and you are behind. As parents we realize our children do not even understand that the race has begun, let alone the rules and nuances of the game. While I idealize a world where my children are able to explore at their own pace and learn from their own failures, I equally realize that options are eliminated at a very early age. Small “mistakes” shut and lock doors of opportunity in the unforgiving and hypercompetitive world that is our reality, not the reality we wish it might be. </p>

<p>Should I allow my daughter to learn on her own in hindsight that she really should have tried harder in that AP Calculus class and gotten an A because that C shut the door on gaining entrance to 10 schools and that B in English Literature shut the door on the next 20? Or should I attempt to keep those doors open for her, knowing she certainly can get an A in those subjects, and knowing that she may not yet comprehend the consequences of her actions? Should I set up the lead internship opportunity with the Obama campaign and the paid internship at the local Biotech Company, knowing these are the necessary minimal pre-requisites for admission to Duke or let her “discover” and explore opportunities on her own? In the end my daughter was fortunate to be accepted ED and will be attending Duke in the Fall of 2014, but I truly do not care if she had chosen Duke, UVA, UCLA or Tulane, truly I do not. But as a loving parent I would like her to have the opportunity for that to be her choice. One where all paths remain available and like yourself, she can take pride in the realization that she walked the course of her own making, on her own terms, through her own decisions. </p>

<p>But you might argue then are the doors she walks through and ultimately the room she arrives at truly of her own making? Perhaps she is simply taking the elaborately choreographed path dictated to her by an overzealous parent and encouraged by misguided societal incentives. I don’t have a right answer on the appropriate balance between these seemingly diametrically opposed dispositions. It is a fine balance and much depends on the child’s disposition. I hope that you find your own answers and are able to navigate this path in a way that works for you and your children in the future. My very best wishes for your continued success in the deepest sense of the word.</p>

<p>With thoughtful and kind regards,</p>

<p>Book’s on my list to get. Haven’t read it yet. </p>

<p>I do want to comment on the “terrible pressures” that are put upon those who are on strict budgets and are barely making it financially to go to college. I was one of those students My parents did not pay much for me or for my siblings (one a Duke grad, by the way) to go to college, so I was one of those among the 50% at my school on financial aid. There were those who were full pay, by the way, who had to watch every penny too, as they were painfully full pay with parents and them taking out loans and working to make that full pay. They were not going on trips and living a luxurious life even though they did not qualify for financial aid. </p>

<p>We were still better off than the vast, vast majority of college students who have to make work , shelter, food, a primary concern and eke out their college classes one at a time as they can afford them, as they did not get aid. When you go to a school that is considered generous in meeting need, you are far, far better off, not even in the same stratosphere as those who are trying to get make ends meet and also go to college. The vast majority of colleges do not come close to meeting full need, and depend heavily on the student having basic needs provided by parents and self. So yeah, my best friend’s dad owned a yacht and she had a car, had few money worries, and in truth, I got some benefits from that, though I also could see how her life and lives like hers were so different from mine. The only way those days, I’d have enjoyed some vacations and experiences I did get, were as her family’s guest or someone’ guest with that kind of access. Not likely to get had I gone to my local community college which would have been tuition free for me due to my dad’s job. I could have lived at home, worked part time and gotten my degree locally for very little out of pocket cost. Going to a top 25 school on full financial and some scholarships, was a whole other experience, but in total cost was about the same, maybe less as I did not have to work full time, just part, didn’t need a car and got a lot more independence than living off my parents those years.</p>

<p>Caveat here—haven’t read book yet.</p>

<p>Yet based simply on descriptions of and comments on the book, it’s possible that Duke-specific commentary is beside the author’s point. Isn’t she writing about a general culture that is being forced to pursue career paths on the basis of monetary gain and status in society, by virtue of how much entrée costs? </p>

<p>Where is the culture that acknowledges there are far, far larger global issues that need to be championed by our best and brightest? The IR student vested in the climate of political strife across the world? The environmental scientist bent on addressing and reversing doomy climate trends? Where are the graduates who are prepared to perhaps live frugally for a number of years, live below or at means–but who are content in the fact that they’re doing what they like or love, and that they’re steering their life’s course on their own? </p>

<p>Where is that ZEAL to heal and change the world or enlighten one’s self that is equivalent to the zeal for a fabulous salary and ROI? Are the latter what define greatness nowadays? And how can we heal the pervasive ailment of a generation ever-anxious about making that apocryphal “one small mistake” that shuts all doors? </p>

<p>Unless this isn’t the author’s point at all. Still bears pointing out, though. </p>

<p>EDIT: thoughtfulinsights, bravo on your well-considered letter, which touches on what I’ve written.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>On campus in Durham. Based on approximately 23 seconds of internet research, I discovered that Duke – as the admissions office likes to brag – is one of the largest feeder schools for Teach for America. It also had 15 recent graduates serving in the Peace Corps as of May 2013. The public policy department sponsors more majors than any other at Duke. The adcoms love to tell people that the two biggest first-job employers for Duke grads are Goldman Sachs and Teach for America. </p>

<p>More to the point, I disagree with your implicit premise that only public sector careers can have public significance and social value. If you don’t believe me, pull out your iPhone and type out a response to tell me why. A lot of folks in this world punch their ticket at an investment bank (and pay down their elite college debt) before going on to many other types of careers in business, academia, or the public sector. </p>

<p>My impression of the kids I meet in Durham is that most want to change the world in some way. But you’d be astonished in how many different ways and by how many different means they hope to do so. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/campus-overload/post/teach-for-america-2011-acceptance-rate-11-percent/2011/08/03/gIQAqX8bsI_blog.html”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/campus-overload/post/teach-for-america-2011-acceptance-rate-11-percent/2011/08/03/gIQAqX8bsI_blog.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Duke is Among Leaders in Attracting Former Peace Corps Volunteers | Duke Today”>https://today.duke.edu/2013/05/pcfellows&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Again, wasn’t being Duke specific in my comments. And how did I imply a dichotomy between private and public sector careers?</p>

<p>Of course you can provide evidence of “higher minded” avocational pursuits such as Teach for America and Peace Corps on elite college campuses. But the author seems to be making sociological points about the meaning and value of higher education. One cannot deny that the pressures for financial gain and ROI are impacting post-graduation life paths, plain and simple. Don’t think the author’s fabricated such a trend.</p>

<p>(And perhaps the author concurs that, after that ticket-punching stint at investment banking and such, folks can pursue whatever career path they choose—public sector, academia, etc?) </p>

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</p>

<p>In related news . . . </p>

<p>Sun Rises in East
Dog Bites Man
Georgetown Basketball Underperforms in March</p>

<p>Those “pressures” (desires) have always existed, but if tuition hadn’t been going up at about double the rate of inflation for most my adult life, we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation.</p>