<p>Thanks, CTmom. I don’t always read Dharma’s long posts; I get the tl;dr part from the rest of you. So if Dharma doesn’t have a reliable estimate, then she should probably schedule the work.</p>
<p>Please don’t tell me you are asking the buyer’s septic inspector to do work for you.<br>
It’s hard to follow the “he” here. And Assuming you meant your guy- You do NOT pay, your mother does.</p>
<p>is it better to completely repair the septic problem (provided the company can wait till closing for full payment) or follow the realtor’s advice to “offer a credit.” Based on no professional experience, of course, I would rather do the work NOW.</p>
<p>I do not trust the first inspector’s septic report. (And, iirc, he didn’t formally quote you a repair price.) </p>
<p>My advice is to pay to get your own one. Pay the $1000 out of your mother’s funds. Then you have those details, ordered by you and you own it. Only then can you know what a) the issue is, and b) projected cost to repair. Then you can figure a credit. (Or a repair.) </p>
<p>Right now you know virtually nothing- certainly not officially. Don’t go on so much un-certainty. How does one even begin to weigh options when they don’t now the reality?</p>
<p>And, am I following that you barraged the RE agent with copies of everything? Does she need all this? On one hand you said my info was how my realtor has expected things to be done and now you are going to *boil down to a few sentences some of what is expressed about written offers and money down to my realtor tomorrow. *</p>
<p>And does she need to know what you wrote to the septic guy and what he wrote back??</p>
<p>Keep it simple and straightforward. Try to sort things on a “need to know” basis. I.e., who needs to know what. In many cases, a summary is all that’s required. “I am dealing with the septic company to see our options for a firm quote.”</p>
<p>I’m concerned some of this overloads the RE agent. </p>
<p>Ps. listen to CTmom on this loan/payback/Medicaid issue…<br>
And, first things first.</p>
<p>lookingforward is right-- pay the $1000 out of your mother’s money to get the analysis of the extent of the septic tank problem and what it will cost to fix it.</p>
<p>Then decide whether to give the buyer a credit (better choice IMO) or to fix it (and then the septic company would need to put a lien on the house so that they get paid at closing.)</p>
<p>Expect nothing from your sister and you will not be disappointed. </p>
<p>And, whoever you hire to give you an estimate for the repair of the septic (agree, don’t use now-gone buyer’s person) should agree to credit the $1000 (or whatever the cost of preparing an estimate will be) towards the repair, when it is done. Then you put that in the sellers contract.</p>
<p>Dharma, I just wanted to say that that supposed “buyer” is a creep of a human being. He knew that you needed to sell quickly, I assume. And yet he was fine with jacking you around for a month and then dropping you. It’s very true that your agent should have pushed the case MUCH sooner than she did, which would have lessened the damage. But he is just scum. Sorry that you ran into him for round 1. Round 2 will go better, I am sure.</p>
<p>The buyer was very misleading, but I am guessing he was shopping around and seeing what was on the market and what was the best deal he could find. Hopefully the next one will be a better deal for both of you.</p>
<p>I think the buyer was looking for a good deal, whether he was a speculator or just whatever. Maybe he waited for the tank report. We want him to have been some kindly guy who fell in love with the house, but this sort of transaction is still business. It’s now water under the bridge. Live and learn. </p>
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<p>Yes, but this is vastly different from a broken septic system, the extent of the damage unknown. The more I think of it, the more I think it should be repaired entirely, although the unfortunate smells and construction-site appearance would be most unfortunate. If we do it, hopefully that would be over and gone in a few days. If I were a potential buyer, the fact that a house had a broken septic system, extent of damage unknown, would completely turn me off. I didn’t have to think about this until Saturday because the ex-buyer was going to take care of it. But now it is my problem.</p>
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<p>Thank you very much LF, I read the whole page, very useful. So I already have a lien with my oil tank co who is waiting for payment, and will have one if the realtor agrees with me to go ahead and fix the septic, and the septic agrees to be paid for the repair at closing (my mother would pay for the $1007 inspection, not my husband and me, and I could not possibly ask the septic company to wait for the inspection cost as well). Question: will the lien holders know enough to wait for my mother’s $200,000 plus check to clear before they try to cash their checks ?</p>
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<p>CF, I don’t blame you for not reading my long posts, but because you skim them, you keep getting things wrong. The point is, the ex-buyer had a septic tank analysis that reported conditions as hideous, and their was NO MENTION of what it would cost to repair it. So no, we do not have what you call “a firm bid.” The report said the septic people would not know the true extent of the damage until they started going underground. Its possible to conceive that the repair could cost from $10,000 up.</p>
<p>The only “bid” I have is from MY septic company, that for $1,007 they would do a full analysis (involving a backhoe etc), assess the damage, and that the cost to fix is is unknown. In my letter to the manager, who will call me today with an answer, I asked if we could pay the $1,007 and pay the rest at closing.</p>
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Indeed the ex-buyer paid for the first inspector’s report (the only actual true report; my company did not come out to the house). This question interests me very much. I would expect a company, regardless of who is hiring them, to be correct and ethical. Is it possible for a report of this kind to be swayed in favor of the point of view the potential buyer would like to read?</p>
<p>In close relation to this question is the following: Lampost lady got a quote of $800 to fix the lamp and cement base. Gordon fixed it for $300 which INCLUDED the price of a whole new lamppost. </p>
<p>LF, as for asking my realtor to read “too much,” here I must absolutely disagree. Since September 3rd, I asked her (and my attorney) almost nothing, deluding myself that I was being well represented.</p>
<p>In contrast, this septic is a critical job, and I wanted her to read slowly and carefully every word I wrote to MY septic company (OF COURSE I would not use the buyer’s company! Someone asked me.) I asked her this because, before talking to the Septic Manager, I wanted her viewpoint of either fixing the job completely or simply telling customers the house has a septic issue and thus lowering the price or giving a credit at closing. She just called; she said if you can get the terms you ask for, go ahead and get the septic fixed, and lets hope soon and in one or two days. BUT she added, if you don’t get your terms, don’t worry too much, because she said she has sold houses with all kinds of problems. </p>
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<p>Good thoughts CTmom. But if they pay closing costs out of pocket, I don’t care. I have been working from 7:30 am till 5 pm for my mother every day since June. I could have earned well over $50,000. And I have been taking her to many MD appts, twice-weekly grocery shopping trips, and the dreaded monthly haircut/chin-waxing for 8 years. Not only has my sister (and her husband) done nothing, this summer they caused me PAIN. It is truly absurd that my sister is planning “a pleasure trip” with her friend, arriving Nov 9. Their expenses will be in the thousands. </p>
<p>In fact, after my voice mail telling my sister to read her email and call me, she actually did, but she put her husband on the phone to discuss money (too much for her). I told him my husband and I have taken out a personal loan (we were turned down for a home equity loan) and they must do the same, that it was simply fair. He evaded my question and said something like, Don’t worry–there will be money–I have (he said some ridiculous amount, I forget specifically) a $10,000 line of credit, something like that.I should have probed here. Does that mean he is willing to provide cash monthly? But he asked me for the AL phone number and said he wanted to talk to the Business director. I gave it to him, but said I insist you do not talk about a lien on my mother living there until her house closes. I want her rent paid in cash every month. So if you want to call to work out terms for a lien, don’t call. I told him to get my sister to start researching no-penalty prepayment home equity loans and start filling out applications. Maybe I am wrong, but I am furious and don’t understand why my sister is making a pleasure trip and has not spoken to my mother for almost a year, spends very abundantly on vets for her many, many animals, and will not provide financial assistance to our mother. Which (most but not all of which I’ve learned) they will recoup at closing.</p>
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<p>Thank you, CT mom. I recognize that your post here completely contradicts what I just wrote and what I told my BIL last night.I just skimmed backward, and somehow missed your post before I posted above–a mistake.</p>
<p>I don’t know why I have such an aversion to the AL putting a lien on the house. MUST they do that if circumstances insist, or do they have a choice? Perhaps my BIL should in fact pursue the idea, hear what the AL has to say about it? Thank God NY is not one of the 30 states that have filial responsibility laws. </p>
<p>I read the NYTimes article.</p>
<p>Let me know your thoughts. Should I learn more from you, then email my BIL that I was wrong about not inquiring about a lien at the AL?</p>
<p>(Perhaps I was very mistaken in that I told my BIL last night (rather firmly) but if I was wrong, I expect he recognizes my stress and will understand–we also discussed the septic issue at length and knows I am dealing with an immense issue there.)</p>
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Dharma,
Not to scare you, but you wont be seeing a 200K check. Assume, for sake of discussion, that you agree on a purchase price of $220. And assume you dont fix the septic but give the new buyer 20K allowance from the price, taking it down to $200K (and a buyer will likely expect that to be deducted separate from the agreed upon sales price). Even if they made you a full price offer of $225, you will be down to 205 after adjusting for the septic. And assume you agree to pay $2k towards closing (not unreasonable). </p>
<p>So, back to the original assumption of a $220K sales price (before septic adjustment) the realtors get, IIRC 6% off the sale price of the house (before all the other concessions) so the amount, already down to $198, will have another $13K or so taken out for the realtors fees (down to 185) and then subtract the title search, attorneys fees, all sorts of bank fees and tax adjustments etc, and the liens against it (oil tank-- was that $3k or so? I forget) and your check may possible be around $180. Just a guess but be aware thats what will happen.</p>
<p>We are all telling you it does not need to be repaired- in our estimation. The only counter would be if the agent says it HAS TO BE. That’s all you have to ask her. “Is this something I need to do, to sell this house?” Since she was ok with the first bidder taking it on himself, I don’t think she is calling this a showstopper. </p>
<p>Since the extent of the damage is unknown, you get the details you need. Don;t complicate it with questions (and waiting for answers) about paying later. Just write the check from Mom’s account. I also think you need to understand that a smallish business may be looking at year-end accounting and not want to wait for payment. We’ll see. Depends.</p>
<p>If you read the lien page, it discussed how all the liens are handled at closing. The escrow company or attorney writes that check, not your mother. “the lien will be included in settlement statement, deducted from proceeds and the attorney will assume responsibility of its payment and will obtain the release as well as record the release.”</p>
<p>I would expect a company, regardless of who is hiring them, to be correct and ethical. Is it possible for a report of this kind to be swayed in favor of the point of view the potential buyer would like to read?</p>
<p>Of course it is possible to be ethical and truthful and still put spin on something. We only know what you told us about the report. Was that the same post where you described damages to neighbors and the street and whatever? My own critical question would be: how does he know that?</p>
<p>Dharma, apologies, but when I went back over parts of the thread, you were quite comfy that your agent was working on your behalf, willing to be to be tough to represent your interests, etc. She doesn’t have to read your emails to answer the question, “Is this repair something we must do?” </p>
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<p>Ah, I am awakened. Also, if there is a gap between when my mother runs out of money and has to pay her AL rent (either my husband’s loan, or my sister/BIL also somehow pitch in) with assistance, even with the house sold, my mother will have to pay us back and she will be a relatively poor woman. Luckily, the AL shifts patience without assets from full pay to Medicaid.</p>
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<p>LF, that is exactly right. You have a good memory. I expect he wrote that the damage might extend that far because he has done so many repairs in the past and has seen this. </p>
<p>LF, sorry, dumb question, but how does the attorney “have” the money to write checks for the liens, etc?</p>
<p>I am not LF, but I’ll bite. The mortgage company is the one that comes up with the check to the attorney, IIRC. And the attorney pays out everything spelled out in the sellers agreement and contract.</p>
<p>And dharma,
If I were you I would not tell your sister what she has to do vis a vis a loan. If I were asked to contribute to a family need, I’d be put off by someone telling me how I had to come up with the money. All you say is "mom will have a serious cash flow problem. We are down to XXXXX. Since the house sale fell through, can you loan mom XXXX and when the house sells, she will pay you back. Period. And telling BIL not to inquire about a lien with the AL is like telling someone not to think of the word hippopotamus. You put it in their head. </p>
<p>And FWIW, I asked my bro to help dad with a cashflow problem. He of course told me to go pound sand. Whatta guy.</p>
<p>The mortgage company provides the dollars into the pot, money owed comes out, the fees and etceteras are also dealt with. It’s all done via accounting principles.</p>
<p>“I expect he wrote that the damage might extend that far because he has done so many repairs in the past and has seen this.” Again, don’t assume when it does disservice to your side. You also said he didn’t use a camera to scope further. So how does he know there’s neighbor damage? </p>
<p>Or did he speculate- ie, just leave a hint that it “could” be or sometimes is? This is why you need your own report from your own trusted inspector. And the quote.</p>
<p>Are you sure septic system is ‘broken’? In our state it doesn’t cost much to have the septic tank pumped out. At that point, perhaps they can see if there is a problem.</p>
<p>jym626, in fact, this morning I sent my BIL an apology for all the things you wrote about. I told him I was not “excusing” myself but that I spent the whole day Sunday worrying about the septic and packing for my mother and was absolutely, not only exhausted, but confused, because tomorrow is the move into AL, and frankly, and I know this is a terrible confession, at this point I can hardly stand the sight of my mother. She asked for a great many paintings, and instead of having the moving men bubble wrap each one, I put about 15 one by one in my van, and while the movers do their job tomorrow, I will carry in each painting, one by one. When management at the AL sees how many paintings she has in her room, they may well tell me to take half back. I asked if the maintenance staff would hang the paintings and was told no. My mother’s handyman will have to go over and hang them (I can’t)</p>
<p>I apologized to my sister for my “demand” of Sat am because, again not using it as an excuse, Sat was the day I insisted to hear yes or no from the buyer if he would sign the contract Mon or Tues. How can I put it: I was extremely charged up and looking for a fight. </p>
<p>Granted, they have been far from good to my parents. My father had post-polio syndrome and walked slowly with a cane. Years ago, after my parents visited them when my sister and her husband in CA, my mother overheard my BIL, while they walked through a Mall, say to my sister what a drag it was to have to slow down for “a cripple.” A cripple. That is an unforgivable thing to say. And my sister’s behavior has been extremely reprehensible. But they both deserved an apology for my demands of the last two days. You may read above that CT mom wrote that if the AL agreed to a lien, it might not be a bad thing, and I communicated that to my BIL. I sure wish I had probed into what he meant about the large credit line he has on his credit card. Is he saying he is simply willing to pay cash off his credit line to tide my mother over through the "gap? He is, as far as I know him, much more the type of guy to try to arrange a lien.</p>
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<p>Yes indeed it is clearly spelled out in the ex-buyer’s report that damage extending that far is a speculation, a possibility. I AM going to have my septic co do the $1007 analysis. From that analysis, we should get a dollar figure idea of the cost to repair the damage.I mean, I think so. The ex-buyer’s septic co did an analysis but did NOT offer a correction cost. The analysis says they will not know the cost until they begin work with a camera.</p>
<p>If my company agrees to be paid at closing, I am inclined to go ahead with the repair to offer a house with no septic problem at all. But the realtor this morning said it was also okay to sell the house with the problem uncorrected and make a cost adjustment/lower the price to cover the repair cost.</p>
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<p>OMG! The only answer to this is to paste in the ex-buyer’s septic company septic analysis:</p>
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<p>What was done: There was a lid to the surface of the ground that we opened to start our inspection and then we dug a hole where we thought there might be access to the outlet of the septic tank. From the surface to the roof of the septic tank it was approximately 3’ deep, this indicates a deep leaching field. We discovered the septic tank is made of metal.</p>
<p>What we found: The metal tank’s roof is pitched (tapered) to the center of the lid downward. This is a definite indication that the roof of the septic tank is collapsing. I would strongly consider not riding a lawn mower or walking or standing on top of the septic tank because it is dangerous and could collapse. With too much extra weight on top of it, it will collapse. This is happening because someone in the past compromised the design of the metal lid by cutting in the access hole to allow easy access to the inside of the septic tank. The inlet baffle is deteriorated, I could tell that by rubbing a shovel up and down the face of the baffle. We couldn’t check the most important baffle, which is the outlet baffle, because the whole lid of the septic tank, approximately 5’ diameter, has to be uncovered. It is 3’ deep x 5’ diameter and a backhoe would be required to uncover it all. The property line is very close to the septic tank’s outlet. We have no plan indicating where the leaching field is or what type is there. There are signs of high sludge marks up in the riser (access tube) on the inlet opening in the roof of the septic tank. This indicates flooding and backing up of the leaching field at some point in the past when the system was being used regularly. There appears to be a separate gray water system that goes outside under the cellar floor. This system should be inspected electronically.</p>
<p>What we recommend:
- Replacement of the metal septic tank using a 1500 gallon poly septic tank to allow better fermenting retention time for better breakdown.
- Removal of the large maple tree that has to be too close to the leaching area.
- Access to the outlet leaching pipe so it can be videoed and to electronically locate where the leaching field is. It could be on a neighbor’s property because the tank is so close to the westward property line and the outlet pipe opening in the septic tank heads out in that direction. This could be done before the tank is replaced or cheaper when the tank was being replaced. </p>
<p>The question above about the leaching system has to be answered first before anyone can know if we could work with the old system (a much less expensive approach) or if a whole new leaching system is needed in which case the Putnam County Health Department would require a licensed engineer’s design to replace the leaching field. Using the old system would come under a “grandfather” rule. A new system would require upgrading to new code and for one thing, there will be code distances that would be required that the property line would not work with.</p>
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<p>Special to jym626 if he cares to read the report above (and anyone else as well, of course), If this was you ex-buyer’s report, what would you do?</p>
<p>Interesting, it is already 11 am and I have not heard back from my septic company about whether they could wait for full payment at closing (if we chose a full septic correction). Perhaps I am over-anxious.</p>
<p>I am not a “he”.</p>
<p>That’s an admirably clear report.</p>
<p>To summarize: </p>
<ul>
<li><p>The tank is collapsing because someone cut a hole in it. It must be replaced. (And don’t stand on it!)</p></li>
<li><p>They couldn’t inspect the outlet of the tank or the leach field, because to do so they’d have to dig a hole three feet deep, that was three feet by five feet. </p></li>
<li><p>There is evidence in the tank that the leach field backed up and failed at previous times.</p></li>
<li><p>When someone is able to inspect the leach field, they might discover that a new leaching system is necessary. It would have to be designed by a licensed structural engineer, and it would have to be up to code. The property lines would be a problem, because the current leach field might be straying to a neighbor’s property.</p></li>
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<p>Dharma, I’m pretty sure you have to disclose this report to buyers, because you have it. It’s hard to decide how to proceed. If you sell the house as is, the buyer is getting an unpleasant problem of unknown scope. That’s going to scare away buyers. If you do the work, it’ll be expensive and messy, and it’ll be very expensive and messy and time-consuming if a new leach field is needed.</p>
<p>I’d bite the bullet and do the work. A buyer is going to want a huge discount to take on the problem.</p>
<p>If you give your septic co the report and have them give you a cost to do the work - if your buyer immediately comes through, otherwise I would discuss with your Realtor how to best move forward. Having the work done between selling and closing??? With knowing how much it is going to cost, can properly ‘discount’ if work will be done by buyer and not seller.</p>