<p>I am asking for a friend who has not been involved AT ALL in the college process for her d and is now starting to panic. The girl wants to apply and audition for a BFA program. NYU is her first choice for schools. She has taken no AP classes, no honors classes and has scheduled a very light year for her senior year in High School with late starts and the minimum amount of hours required for graduation. She has some good EC’s and leadership entries, but with the level of competition out there, even though talent is a big part of the process, how much does the academic transcript weigh in? There is still time to reconsider classes for Sr. year, so I was hoping for some insight.</p>
<p>I think that the subject heading question is not the same question in the body of your post. </p>
<p>If you were only asking if no AP or Honors classes could get you into a BFA…I would say, yes, because there are a bunch of BFA programs that are located in universities that are not that academically selective and the academic bar you have to pass is not that high. So, there are lots of schools where a student could get in who did not take a very demanding HS curriculum. However, there ARE schools where a “light” curriculum would be an issue. </p>
<p>Now…to the body of your post…which seems focused more on NYU. For one thing, NYU/Tisch weighs academics 50% and artistic talent 50% of the admissions decision whereas many schools weigh the audition a greater percentage than the academic part. So, for starters, academics will matter to get into NYU. Further, NYU, the university itself, is quite selective with an admit rate around 25% (that is not for Tisch which is WAY lower) but simply to get into the university at large. There is no way to evaluate your friend’s stats vis a vis NYU’s admissions because all you have mentioned are the level of coursework. NYU uses holistic admissions and will certainly weigh the level of rigor of the chosen HS curriculum (within the context of what the student’s HS offers), but also the GPA, the class rank, the standardized test scores, the activities and achievements, the recommendations, the essays, etc. So, just one factor alone is too hard to assess here. However, generally speaking, to be competitive for NYU (just talking of a school of that level of academic selectivity), a student should have ideally challenged herself by taking at least a higher than average level of rigorous classes at her HS. A very demanding curriculum would be good and of course, a “most demanding” level would be best. Simply “demanding” might be OK if balanced by other stellar qualifications on the academic record. But ideally, if shooting for such selective schools academically, it never hurts and can only help to take the most challenging curriculum you can personally handle. Scheduling a light year for senior year is likely not a good choice if aiming for more academically selective schools. However, it would suffice for less academically selective schools. Also, it is hard to even say without knowing her entire academic profile. Does she have the SATs or GPA in the ballpark for NYU? And so on. If she wants NYU and has stats in the ballpark, she should then go for it but also attempt to challenge herself in choosing courses that are not the easy track but within reason of what she can handle and still achieve at least Bs in the courses. In other words, taking AP Calculus and bombing it doesn’t matter. But taking the easy track just to get A’s when you could handle Honors or AP tracks and make Bs is worth attempting.</p>
<p>Yes, that does all make sense and I did mention NYU because it was her 1st choice. She is one of those who thinks you need to be in NYC to have the exposure, etc. etc. I believe that her SAT based on the 2400 scale was a 1650 and she has a 3.8GPA or something like that but it has been in the required courses needed for graduation. I would hate for her to have the opinion that making straight A’s and having talent will be enough for schools such as NYU. She doesn’t want SoCal schools and because we have had quite a few kids go to NYU in the last couple of years, I think the academics might be taking a back seat to the “desire to go to a great BFA school”. I will be happy to take advice in general for schools, not just NYU. Sorry for the specificity, it was intended for an example.</p>
<p>I dont want this girl to have a short list of 2 or 3 schools and be disappointed if the Stats are not good enough. I realize that there is no “cookie cutter” answer, but other than going to each school’s website or thread, is there a publication that helps compare MT schools and their average Stats?</p>
<p>I personally know of a half dozen really talented kids who never took a single AP or honors class in their lives (and are not “top” students by any stretch of the imagination) who are all attending top BFA programs – including NYU – though they are actors and not MTs.</p>
<p>Thanks NotMamaRose. That will give her great hope! I was afraid that with the competition she would need to be as competetive as possible academically to be considered. Do you agree that she should consider some less competetive options to apply for?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>One thing I have observed over the years on CC is that SOME kids pick their MT colleges based on which schools offer a BFA in MT as if that is the only criteria and with no examination of their academic or artistic qualifications for each school. One kid’s list should not be like another. It is not enough to choose schools simply because they offer BFA or because a student has heard of the school. The student must be in range for each school and have some academic reaches, matches, and safeties, let alone a range or artistically selective schools and some non audition back ups. All audition based schools are reaches for anyone by the way. Also, each school should match up in some capacity with a student’s college selection criteria (beyond the “it offers MT”). </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I see this with many kids a LOT. It is misguided and they really need someone in the know to talk to them about this. It is most important to attend a school that is a good fit where one can get good training. Where the BFA program is located is secondary, although preferences are natural to have. But when one builds a list, it is WAY too narrow to limit the search to schools in NYC because there are not that many and the student would be knocking out great programs, let alone good fits or even better fits for themself. While my own kid is in NYC, she only applied to one school in NYC and being there was not a must even though she likes NYC a lot. And yes, now that she is there, there ARE some benefits but she could have lived without those as they were not essential to have. It is not like these kids are going to be auditioning for Broadway, etc. cause they are in Manhattan. They will not have time to audition. So, some of these kids are very unrealistic as well as too narrow in their thinking in how to select an appropriate college. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There truly is no way for me to evaluate this girl’s chances at NYU and I would need far more information about her. Such limited info. is not nearly enough to go by. But very very very roughly speaking, her SAT of 1650, which you gave no breakdown of the three subtest scores which is important because we don’t know if she has a 550 on each section or like a 490 on one and a 610 on another and that would skew the chances…but let’s just say she has 1100 combined on the CR/M. That is low for NYU. But I could not evaluate her on this one “stat” in isolation. The 50% mid range of accepted students to NYU on the SATs CR/M combined is: 1300-1440. So, 25% who are admitted, had lower than a 1300 on the CR/M. Someone with an SAT below 1300 is going to be admitted at a lower rate of acceptance and thus the odds become more difficult. I am into applying to SOME reach schools. But I do believe that a reach school should be within reach. An 1100 SAT makes NYU what I would call a FAR REACH but again, that is JUST on the SAT and the entire package would be evaluated. But then you add in that she did not take the challenging courses offered at her HS, none. Took the easiest load and min. requirements. Add those two things together, the odds now went down more. Her GPA is good. I don’t know her class rank or distribution withint the class and much more that needs to be known. But her SAT itself puts NYU into “Far Reach” odds. And who knows her artistic talents…getting into Tisch is difficult artistically too. </p>
<p>I would advise this girl to never let academics take a back seat. They are applying to college, and colleges do care about academics, though each college has a different bar to jump over. But why limit one’s options? Many kids put their all into artistic development and still do their best academically and those kids are going to have more options. I cannot tell you how many kids come to me as late as senior year and then regret that their chances at some schools are more limited because their grades and so on are not that good. Their options are limited. They also have had difficulty getting into some schools. This girl has a chance to challenge herself senior year and also prep to retake the SATs if she is seeking harder schools like NYU. It never hurts to give it your all. It often can pay off. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Speaking only for myself here, I cannot help with that level of individual help on a message board. I would want to gather way more about her qualifications and selection criteria and cannot do that here. The responses I am giving on this thread are VERY general and not really geared enough to her case as that is impossible with too little to go on.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Let me start out by saying that NO STUDENT, no matter how crazy talented in MT and how stellar of an academic star, should apply to only 2-3 MT programs. The odds would be very stacked against gaining an acceptance. I would never let my kid do that. While I am biased being her mom, I knew she was in the ballpark for a BFA in MT artistically speaking and had some benchmarks that showed she was competitive and she had very good academic stats much higher than the girl you are talking about and I can tell you that I worried if she’d get in…I figured she would get into at least one but thought the odds at each program were very very low…examine the admit rates…they ARE low…for anyone. So, I don’t think this girl should apply to just two to three schools and even if she only applies to six, she will have to pick six where her odds are not as slim academically or artistically because on such a short list, NYU is likely a very slim chance for her and might be worth putting on a list of 10 schools that are balanced out with some schools where her stats are more in the ballpark. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>While there isn’t a publication of academic stats for MT schools, there are numerous publications and directories of colleges in the US that publish the stats of admitted students. For instance, there is The Princeton Review’s 345 Best Colleges or The Fiske Guide to Colleges, or the yearly edition of college rankings and college stuff from US News and World Report. Not every school may be in each publication but many are. US New and World Report also has an online edition by paid subscription. Every student exploring colleges should be looking at two college directories to learn about the colleges themselves, beyond what is on the college’s website (though the websites for each school usually publish on the site, their Common Data Set which lists the stats of admitted students and the admit rate to the college and much more). Nobody should be picking colleges wihtout examining this sort of information. The fact that a college offers a BFA in MT is not enough reason to pick it!</p>
<p>NMR wrote:
</p>
<p>One problem as I mentioned previously is that it is very hard to take this ONE factor (rigor of curriculum) out of context from a student’s entire profile. I don’t doubt that someone who did not take AP or Honors got into NYU but we don’t know the entire picture of those candidates and what else they had going for them and it would be hard to say that since they got in with a less than rigorous curriculum, that someone like the girl on this thread might too. For example, colleges will ask the guidance counselor to rate the student’s rigor of curriculum on a scale in relation to what that HS offers (and they will also examine the HS Profile). Back when my kids went to HS, for example, our HS only offered two AP classes and then also offered many Honors classes and then regular classes. Since they left, a few of their Honors senior level courses have now been designated AP but when they attended, there was only AP Calculus and AP Physics, that’s it, then Honors, then regular. My kids’ guidance counselor was able to check off “most demanding curriculum” because my kids had taken the highest level courses in each subject each year that OUR HS offered. In fact, they went beyond most demanding level as they also had accelerated and for example, took AP Calculus and French V as juniors and my D who stayed for senior year took a second year of college Calculus long distance and French 6 independent study. But she “only” had two AP classes because only two were offered. So, if someone at our HS had taken all Honors but no AP, they could state, “no AP classes” but that would not be comparable to someone at a HS who took no AP classes when 25 are offered! But both got into very selective colleges. Then, we don’t know about those kids who did not take a demanding curriculum. They may have had high SATs to compensate OR they could be an under represented minority or have stellar achievements and what not. So, it is too hard to take out of context that someone got in with no AP classes. It sounds like the girl in this post took no Honors, no AP, took the min. requirements, and could even have lower than a combined CR/M of 1100. So, the odds become slimmer at NYU and she should plan accordingly. We don’t have enough to go on but I am sure there are exceptions…where someone got in with an 1130 but had a lot of other things to make up for that one low stat. But the stats of admitted students gives applicants an idea of their ODDS…and how chancy those will be. Someone whose stats are in range will have better odds, that’s all. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There truly is no way any of us could gauge how competitive she is for NYU without knowing more, and there is the artistic end as well. But a general answer, in my view, is that YES, this girl needs to consider less competitive options where her academic stats fall more closely in range. She can have academic reaches, but needs matches, and safeties as well. And she needs non audition school back ups that are also academic safeties when you put her academic stats against those of admitted students to those colleges.</p>
<p>Great as usual soozievt. I will pass along all of your great advice. I can only try to relay the info as at the end of the day, if the student doesn’t do anything to “boost” the application I just hope that she will have a good fall back if she doesn’t get her “dream school”. I fear that if the motivation has been misplaced up to this point that it probably won’t change much, but one never knows.</p>
<p>britbrat, you could have your friend check stats on collegeboard.com for MT schools in which she is interested. The information may not be perfect, but at least at a quick glance, one can check average SAT scores, tuition, etc. When my D was going through this, I would check that site for a quick assessment and then go from there. As I said, the information may not be perfect, but it gave me a starting place for schools I knew nothing about.</p>
<p>britbrat, even though (as I said above), I know kids who have gotten into many of the top BFA programs in acting without APs and honors (or even being in the National Honor Society!), most of those kids are attending conservatory programs (NCSA, Purchase, CalArts) where grades did not matter as much as did the audition. As far as NYU, your friend does need to realize/recognize that academic achievement is 50% of the admissions decision, which means that yes, she should consider some less academically competitive schools, for sure. It’s always a bad idea for a kid to set his or her heart strongly on one school, especially when it comes to BFA programs!</p>
<p>PS:Just had a thought … the kids I know who are going to top conservatory programs without any/many APs and honors also attended an urban public high school (arts high school) where there were few (maybe 4) AP classes even offered, so adcoms also could take into consideration that these kids did not have the OPPORTUNITY to take those courses. (For instance, one of the APs is in fine art, and only visual artists could take it. The only AP class that <em>all</em> kids could take is AP English.) If your young friend had the chance to take these courses but just chose not to, well, that would definitely weigh against her, I think, at a school such as NYU. At NYU’s audition, one of the faculty present emphasized that if a student was coming there just to be in New York and to dance, sing and act, then that student was barking up the wrong tree! He stated that those who come to NYU need to want to be academic students, as well, which is why the admissions dept cares so much about grades and scores and essays and the like.</p>
<p>NMR, that was exactly my point that we can’t gauge the statement, “took no AP classes” out of context. Kids from our HS have gone to Ivy League colleges and until recently, the hardest courses at the HS were not designated AP, except TWO classes, though we had many Honors classes. The kids who took the hardest and most demanding curriculum, at the time my kids attended, could only state “two AP classes” and the rest Honors. For instance, my child went to an Ivy League school where some of her peers may have taken 10 AP classes. But she was competitive at these colleges because her rigor of courses chosen were viewed by adcoms in THE CONTEXT OF HER HIGH SCHOOL and what was available to her. She took the most demanding curriculum available (and then some). But the names of what she took may not impress someone who went to a HS that had completely different offerings. I have a student client now (not in theater) who goes to a HS that has very advanced offerings including two levels above Calculus and even two levels of AP Calculus and is worried that her taking Calculus in 12th grade is not rigorous enough given it is not as high as one could go in her HS whereas that would be considered demanding to most anyone else!</p>
<p>The OP’s friend might want to take a look at other schools in NYC that are much less academically selective than NYU. Marymount Manhattan, Pace University and Wagner all offer great musical theater programs- as well as having extensive liberal arts requirements. She also would almost certainly qualify for academic merit money at Pace and Marymount. It’s important to have a wide range of schools on your list.</p>
<p>Those three schools seem like great suggestions!</p>
<p>Montclair State is right outside of NYC and has a very strong BFA program. The OPs friend might also want to check them out.</p>
<p>^^ Another great idea!</p>
<p>soozievt, in one of your earlier emails you posted that the middle 50% range for the SATs at NYU are 1300 to 1400. Is that for Tisch? The numbers I have for NYU from the latest US News are 1210 to 1410.</p>
<p>Great ideas AGAIN! I offered the resource of CC to this students Mom that I have been asking about and she said it was too overwhelming, so not much luck there. I didn’t want to be too specific because we don’t want to offend or identify anyone, but in the question of the availabity of the courses offered.</p>
<p>Literature and Composition I Honors
Literature and Composition II Honors
Advanced Placement Language Composition
Advanced Placement Literature
Advanced Placement Calculus
Advanced Placement Statistics
Advanced Placement Economics
Advanced Placement United States History
Advanced Placement World History
Advanced Placement Chemistry
Advanced Placement Physics
Advanced Placement Spanish
Spanish III Honors
Advanced Placement French/French IV Honors
Advanced Placement Art History </p>
<p>So, if a student is not willing to expand the HS transcript and thinks that going to a PA HS is enough, I am afraid that me might see a few tears when letters start coming next spring. I will pass on the 3 names suggested above and my Petersen’s guide should be arriving from Amazon today. It was recommended by an OCHSA mom that just went through the process and out of the 14 schools her d applied for, she was accepted for 10 (another one to join your d at NYU soozievt :)). She did however, have a strong academic transcript. I will be looking for those schools that do not weigh the academics quite so much.</p>
<p>dtwmm, here is the current Fast Facts page on the NYU site:</p>
<p>[NYU</a> > Undergraduate Admissions > Explore NYU > Fast Facts](<a href=“http://admissions.nyu.edu/explore.nyu/fast.facts.html]NYU”>Undergraduate Admissions)</p>
<p>It has a lot of interesting information. According to that, the middle SAT 50% is 1300-1440, and the middle 50% for the ACT is 29-31.</p>
<p>NYU does not release school specific stats but, generally speaking, Tisch’s stats are comparable to the overall NYU stats.</p>
<p>Which raises a question? Do some schools just look at the 2 categories of the SAT and not the 3rd? I have had kids see that Stat and think that they are ok with a 1450 total on a test that was worth 2400. I think that can be confusing to parents and students when the standard test is 3 parts now and not 2 like it was for a very long time. Is it more helpful to say that they should strive for around 700 on each part of the test?</p>
<p>At the NYU general info session (which my D and I attended this past spring, after she was already admitted) the presenter said that the school doesn’t really look at/count the SAT writing score, because (according to the presenter) kids can write a good essay while making up facts. In other words, if a kid wrote that Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1678, but wrote that in a proper sentence, points would not be taken off. I have heard that is true, and is one flaw in the writing test that the College Board needs to/plans to correct.</p>
<p>What the NYU presenter was saying was that kids have to strive for the highest possible score on the math and verbal portions, as those are the portions that count.</p>