My daughter’s guidance counselor used to be an admissions officer at Penn. She said schools view AP Stat as a lesser/lower AP as compared with Calculus. She said the selective schools really want to see Calculus or even better AP Calculus at some level senior year. My daughter is a language/humanities gal, and she is taking AP Calculus AB senior year. It is her hardest class. She has a B average, but it shouldn’t hit her GPA too hard at this point. Some math types in her class are taking AP Calc BC and the really advanced ones are taking multivariable. If your kid wants Georgetown, aim for what Georgetown wants. Rigor of schedule is a big deal.
My younger kid really liked stats because she could see how it would be useful for her in college. That kept her motivated and interested. Is your son looking to any field that a mastery of stats is needed? Sociology, Psych, Poli sci?
Remember, it’s not about having the highest count of APs. In fact, taking some of the less strenuous, just to get more AP, isn’t it.
The point of AP calc for non-stem kids has a lot to do with taking on the challenge, what that can represent.
But the right rigorous history classes, too. WH or EH and APUSH, for starters.
It can be more relaxed, if not talking about the more competitive colleges.
@“Snowball City” My son is interested in international economics or International Studies with an economic focus. He will have two AP’s in economics and either 4 or 5 AP’s in Social Sciences. As I have stated before I would consider regular statistics or calculus, but those classes may not make. My son’s B’s have all come from math and I really am worried he could get a C or worse in an AP math. We have already engaged a tutor for Math Analysis to ensure a B and hope for an A.
@Houston1021 If a HS schedule with 10 AP’s in not rigorous enough - 4 in his senior year then he won’t be going to Georgetown. I really doubt the difference of having only Math Analysis over calculus will be what gets him denied - it will be his Language credits, class rank and GPA. He is complete middle of the road for Georgetown. He has a dream school and I know reality.
He will most likely be applying ED 1 and/or 2 to AU and/or GW which will increase his chances of admittance. (TCU is also on my radar as it has an International Economics degree.) Our ace in the hole is that our address reads as a small town in Missouri under 5,000 as it’s a suburb of KC. Both schools have under 1% historical representation from Missouri. I’m honestly not concerned for my son at all. He does not need Financial or Merit aid to attend college and has guaranteed acceptance to our state schools. His friend is another story and without Math Analysis, I think he might have serious issues being able to get into a more selective school. if he gets in, he will have to compete for scholarships with applicants with much more rigor in the math field.
I am going to see if my son will be my back door by complaining to him about how we are making him take Math Analysis to get into colleges. If he can get the information to him as my parents are a pain then it’s not me delivering the news, but at least someone has talked to him about it.
An economics major at many colleges will have to take calculus and statistics for his major. If he is afraid of those courses now, he may want to think about other majors that require less math.
My daughter’s college statistics class had a calculus prerequisite. I’d say take them now so that we he retakes them at the college level he starts with a good base.
@ucbalumnus @“Snowball City” Thanks for you advice. I guess we will differ on the need for AP math before college. My son had the highest grade on both the midterm and final in AP Economics. He has a very strong aptitude for economics and how the world interacts together on an economic and a political level. He is not afraid of math, he doesn’t like math that he see no purpose for unless you are an engineer. I don’t think there is anything wrong with not wanting to take a college math class when you are in High School. If, as I have said several times, they offer the regular classes instead of the AP ones, he will take one. My dad has a master in math and a PhD in Special Education. For the last 5 years of his career he was the state math analyst in charge of the state’s math curriculum. He says one of the worst shifts in our education system has been the pushing down of math. He said we are pushing down math concepts that are too advanced for many students at the grade level that they are now being introduced. He believes the end result is that instead of increasing our STEM fields we are going to discourage kids who “could” have been good at math, but were introduced too early to concepts that their brains were not ready to process. My son and his peers are perfect examples of this as several hate math like he and his best friend. They do not want to take the AP level classes and a few are taking them only due to the threat of “not getting into college”. They were put on the accelerated math path like my son and now instead of encouraging them into STEM careers they don’t want to continue on with math.
Note that a student looking toward a serious career in economics should plan to take econometrics, for which calculus is a critical prerequisite. Often, even the micro and macro intermediate theory courses also include calculus as a prerequisite. This appears to be the case at Georgetown under the regular econ major. Perhaps your son might see a new purpose for math once he has seen more economics.
Of course, calculus can be taken at college. Admission to selective schools is another matter entirely.
(Statistics is also required for the econ degree, though the department is likely to have its own course for which AP stats may not substitute. In fact, calculus is often a prerequisite for economic statistics as well, depending on how many levels of stats the econ department offers.)
But I don’t understand why the only choice is regular or AP, when you have access to dual enrollment college classes. If AP Stats is too hard in the way it’s taught at your school, a basic, gen ed, elementary stats class should be okay.
Economics can require a lot of math though. Each college has different requirements, so check it out one by one.
@MYOS1634 - Our only dual enrollment math class is college algebra. It would be great if we had other choices. As I have stated before our HS wants to enroll more AP classes to raise their rank so they encourage kids to only sign up for the AP math classes and then the regular calc & stats classes don’t make. I don’t believe the regular classes have made for several years now.
@evergreen5 Here are the HS requirements from Georgetown: International Economics is in the Walsh School of Foreign Services but he also meets the requirements for a business economics degree.
Business Program. Students interested in The McDonough School of Business should complete a minimum of three years of math, through advanced algebra and trigonometry, (my son will have these plus Math Analysis) as calculus is required of all students in the program. Two years of natural science are recommended.(my son will have bio, chem, physics, ap physics) Because computers are used extensively in the curriculum, a course in computer science (my son will have PLTW CS & AP CS) is highly recommended.
Language or Foreign Service Program. Students interested in the Faculty of Languages and Linguistics or the Walsh School of Foreign Service are recommended to have a background in a modern foreign language or Latin. (this is where he is weak - 2 years Spanish and Planning 2 years either German or French)
Georgetown is his dream school. But all of his other schools are guarantees or “more” selective not “most” selective. I think a lot of advice I’ve received is about “most” selective schools. It’s fine if he ends up at Mizzou - that’s a guarantee. And with their drop in enrollment they have been eager to recruit. He wants to go on to law school and before we go on to he needs to go to the best school to get into law school, a friend of ours went to MU and went to Georgetown law School and was offered a full ride to Law School at Wash U. I think it would be best for him to go to a school where he was in the top 25% of the school (instead of Georgetown where he will be middle 50%) as he will be competing with his fellow students for spots at law schools.
At some point you just have to let the kid do what he wants to do It is what it is. If he owns it, then it is fine.
Would he go to Concordia Language Camp for the high school credit summer program? The immersion experience is a very different way to learn a language.
Not sure what you expect “regular” (non-AP) calculus and statistics to be like. AP calculus AB and AP statistics are already slower paced than college calculus and statistics courses (they take a year in high school to cover what would be a semester of material in college). If your son does not really like math, but will need to take calculus for his economics major, he may prefer to start it at a slower pace in a high school calculus AB course than in a full speed college course.
Georgetown international economics and Mizzou economics do require calculus as a major requirement and as a prerequisite to some economics courses.
I agree his weak point for Georgetown will be foreign language. Level 2 will not allow him to take a language as his third subject test, which is expected for SFS. Taking his language at a community college level 2 in the spring, level 3 over the summer level 4 in the Fall, would make up for it and let him take a subject test in December. Or he could attend a language intensive camp at Concordia (fun) or Middlebury (serious and selective) this summer, skip to level 4 in the Fall. Other places where he could attend a foreign language intensive program would include Penn state and Ole Miss.
It seems OP’s son has safeties they’d be happy with and can afford. Good. Done.
But other than that, it seems she’s is looking at this from the high school perspective. I.e., what the hs wants to push kids into, whether AP stats or calc is harder, if it’s good enough to stop with the pre-calc, the count of AP, the make-do with a 2nd FL. As Ucbalumnus and MYOS note, for highly selectives, at some point, she needs to step from that to the actual admit competition (how other kids will be prepared) and the expectations in the college program, itself, which can also affect admissions.
For anything Georgetown with the word ‘international’ in it, literally or conceptually, I’d be much more comfortable with FL depth. Isn’t there any way to continue with Spanish- online and some self study, summer school, or a chance the next level Spanish course is more interesting? A tutor to help? (I’m not as keen on a summer immersion program, as it takes the kid away from other summer opps. It’s different when a kid is interested in langs and immersion ices the cake.)
And I’m always iffy on pre-calc being “enough.” Regardless of how we all know stats can be interesting and valuable, sometimes it helps to look at this from the college’s perspective.
Add to all that, being from a smaller suburb isn’t necessarily a tip.
If OP is satisfied, fine. My comment is really about the more reachy colleges.
@ucbalumnus Our classes are semester long - exactly like college so that it helps our kids be prepared for the pace of college. It also allows for 8 classes a year while many schools in our area only have 7. It would be much better to have a foundation class in HS calculus or statistics before moving onto college levels. Both Georgetown and Mizzou offer calculus and do not require it for entry and in fact Georgetown only requires up to trigonometry.
@“Snowball City” @MYOS1634 I appreciate the language program suggestions. Since we are semester based, he has two full years of Spanish - he could do a language immersion to refresh his 2 years of Spanish (both taken last year) and then move to 3 & 4 at High School. I’m going to suggest this to him as our upper level Spanish teacher is his scholar bowl coach. Pretty much the entire team will tell you she likes him the best. He’s not the highest scoring player by far but, she appointed him JV Team Captain and will even choose him as the varsity sub over better players. He has some sort of personality magic, because his debate coach pretty much feels the same about him even though he’s a very average team member in terms of winning.
I’m sure some parents really “live” through their children or want to be able to brag about what selective school their kid got into. This is not my husband or I. Both of us went to state schools and we are in the financial position to full pay for 2 kids private/out of state college and grad school, so we don’t put a lot of stock in needing a prestige school to have a “good” life. His dream school may be Georgetown, but he has never set foot on the campus and I’m pretty sure he has no clue that he will be required to take 2 religion classes. My guess is after visiting DC this Spring Break he will come to the conclusion that Georgetown is not the right fit for him and choose another DC school as his first choice.
I’ve seen first hand the destructiveness of parents pushing their kids. Last year my friend’s nephew committed suicide because he severely injured his pitching arm and was not going to get a scholarship. The best parenting advice I have taken to heart comes from my friend whose son is transgender - “Healthy, Happy, Safe”. When I parent I parent from this perspective, so as long as my kids are happy, healthy and safe, I’m not going to worry about it. This thread was never about my son, it was about his friend who was not even taking math analysis and who has a financial need for scholarships. That’s a huge difference from a kid who has no need for financial aid and has math analysis.
Mizzou is one thing, Gtown is another. It’s not what’s “required” for entry, some minimums. It’s how the applicant presents as competitive, among so many other candidates who will be highly prepped, plus other experiences in their activities.
This isn’t about destructive pushing. Once anyone states a highly competitive college is on their kid’s radar, the game changes. If you think Gtown is just a pipe dream, fine. You’ve got him covered for other schools.
As for his friend, Rice is one of the schools, imo, that is very unpredictable. If the friend matches wonderfully in all the other ways, maybe he has a shot. But they, too, have high expectations on the level of rigor and success. It’spart of what shows drives and thinking. As long as the friend has happy, affordable safeties, fine.
Yes I think you’re 100% correct, your son will e okay no matter what, it’s just in case he really likes the DC schools.
His friend, indeed, needs math analysis (and foreign language, and a solid ec). If his family’s under 65k/fzmily of 4, he should look into Questbridge. For a kid with high financial need and zero guidance, the path is treacherous.
@lookingforward - actually I’m looking at this from a mental and physical health standpoint of my child (he has a chronic health condition and stress can create flares). You can read the post above about my feelings on the matter. It’s true my school only cares about their stats, but my son will have take 10-11 AP’s depending on next years schedule. He has A’s in every AP. So he is ready for the rigor of college. Being not as strong in one subject area does not mean one is not ready or can not compete in college. My friend’s daughter is at U of G and is very weak in language & reading due to dyslexia. It didn’t stop her from getting into the college out of state or doing well while she is there. Also being from a small suburb in Missouri does give him an edge for two reasons - Schools look for diversity within their population and two of his top school have less than 1% representation from our state. It can also increase their applicant numbers from that area in general. If one kid gets accepted to a college that the HS students typically does not apply to then historically colleges gets more applications from that school in future years because x student goes there. And we all know that some colleges actively seek to increase their applicant pool to increase selectivity thus increasing rankings. Further more he is in the top 10% of the applicant pool in one school and top 25% in the other and will most likely be going ED. The main reason I am against Georgetown is that he will be middle of the road at that school. Also my son is a competes in Foreign extemporaneous speaking and Lincoln Douglas Debate. He’s the scholar bowl JV team captain, and founding member of our chess club. He has 2 Duke TIP camps on his resume in addition.
@sahmkc it’s clear you’ve done your homework, for your son. There is a lot you do understand. We’re not saying to push him. This is more just a frank chat about what it can really take to get into some highly competitive colleges, some majors at those. And then, to be truly ready for those majors, what they expect and the peers in those classes. You have him backed up already, other college targets, that’s good.
This is also just chat: part of what I think Ucb is saying is, once in college, it’s not the same as high school. High school APs are often not true college level, not taught by college profs, etc. They are how your one hs handles that teaching, those tests, and the grading. Doing well in hs AP does suggest a kid is ready for a competitive college, but it’s not definitive. It’s a high school measure.
Being not as strong in one area is understandable. But as I sometimes say, this isn’t about transferring to a better high school, it’s the college leap. The adcoms need to see you match them, their expectations (not minimums) and their view of a pool of thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of candidates. Some of this is general, some is specific to the major.
Also just chat: being from an underrepresented high school or suburb brings it’s own risks. He’ll compete against kids from other cities and suburbs in MO, public and private hs, and other parts of the state that may have high schools emerging from the shadows. He- and his hs- will be compared with other kids in other hs, ten or 100 miles away.
But you’ve got options, that’s good.
And I’m not pushing summer immersion. I’m advocating continuing Spanish. And your young friend, despite the nuber of AP, needs to consider the spread of classes and the rigor in math.
@sahmkc I sent you a private message