Last night my son and I were discussing his registration for his senior year. He was asking if he could just not take a math class (he is currently in Math Analysis) and take AP Euro. I told him that he needed to take a math class because selective schools are going to want to see math every year. We settled on statistics instead of calculus. He then informed me that his best friend was not even taking Math Analysis. He was going straight into statistics next year. I was floored and concerned for his friend. He is one of the top students at our highly ranked public school (which means he is almost straight A’s - B in AP Chem & I’m guessing 12 AP’s). He scored National Recognition for Duke TIP. He pretty much one ups my son on everything - this is a running joke between them. His parents are completely hands off and I feel his GC should be providing better guidance. I know he has aspirations to attend an out of state more selective to highly selective school (he told me Rice was his dream school). My question is - will his lack of pre-calc be a huge issue - big enough that I should bring it up to him? He is obviously not going i to a STEM field. I don’t want to be a busy body, but yet I would hate for bad guidance to sabotage his chances at his dream schools.
Conventional wisdom seems to insist on 4 years of math and completion of at least one year of calculus in high school even if that means doubling up. I’ve seen many kids post on CC that they are through Calc BC and taking linear senior year. I’ve also seen kids here NOT take AP USH without concern about getting into top schools.
One of my Ds didn’t take any math senior year. She had been advanced in math since 6th grade so completed what was required for graduation. She is a humanities student absolutely: 2 foreign languages, AP Euro and 2 years of AP USH, orchestra and AP music theory. Difficult to say whether it hurt her in the admissions process for top schools.
With so many public schools allowing only 6 classes a semester it is impossible for kids to take all the core classes plus AP electives that they want. I advise to pursue studies that kids are really excited about not taking just for transcript value. To me it seems much more important for a kid to be passionate about studies than dreading them. But that is a personal choice.
One of my kids took calculus; the other took computer programming which in our high school is a math class. Both did what was right for them in terms of interests.
Both had taken AP Stats.
Both ended up in top 20 liberal arts colleges.
We don’t have a class called Math Analysis so I don’t know what it covers.
Rice does not offer precalc. The engineering majors must be able to start in calculus. There is a slower-paced calculus class for business majors.
Snowball City - Math Analysis is pre-calculus and it is a requirement before taking calculus. Also thanks to you and @Oregon2016 for the input. I feel better to know that his choice is not totally unusual. I’m close to my kids’ friends because my house is the house that the kids all hang out at. It is not unusual for them to ask for my advice . One of my daughter’s friends has asked me if she can come with us on college visits and she has had a lot of questions about college. I know that I will feel the same joy or disappointment for them in this college experience as I will for my own children.
Yes, I think that a lack of pre-calc and calculus might hurt your son’s friend in the admission process at very selective schools, and it is worth mentioning. In our high school, all students aiming for very selective colleges (Ivies, etc) are encouraged to take calculus, even if they are not planning to study STEM. Why? Because 94% of the incoming class of 2017 at Harvard took calculus in high school, as reported in The Crimson (and 5% of the remaining kids took pre-calc). Am guessing the statistics at other top schools are similar, especially a STEM-focused school like Rice
http://features.thecrimson.com/2013/frosh-survey/academics.html
In our district for the advanced students, after the algebras and geometry, they take precalc in 10th grade, AP Stats in 11th, and APCalculus or Programming in 12th(programming could be any year).
Perhaps he is interested in state schools which won’t be as picky and looking for merit money.
For my kids, stats was very useful in any discipline.
The more usual recommendation would be to complete math through at least precalculus.
Taking math all four years of hs is a must in mind as it can be frowned upon by some colleges (even if you get a math credit in middle school, senior math is a good idea). That being said, I think that precalc is definitely a good idea, almost necessary; not taking it could limit you. Calc is not necessary, but is almost not optional for competitive engineering programs.
Your son is fine with Math analysis then AP Stats. AP Euro is a great class he could take as a Senior Social Science class. It doesn’t have to be Math OR History, it should be both actually.
His friend, however, DOES need to take Math Analysis in order to be a viable candidate for the schools he’s aiming for. Calculus is not necessary but Precalculus will be. If he doesn’t want to take precalc during the year (and since ability doesn’t seem to be a problem), he could take Precalculus/College Algebra/Analysis at a local college (community college is fine) over the summer, and stick to his plan of taking Stats during the year.
Also make sure he has 4 years of English, Social Science, and Science (including all three of Bio, Chem, Physics), plus a Foreign language up to level 4 or AP. His guidance counselor doesn’t seem too keyed into what top schools want, so you can’t assume this kid (your son’s friend) has been properly advised. With judicious scheduling in the Spring and 1-2 classes that can be taken at a CC over the summer, it can still be remediated, but it’s close.
@MYOS1634 Thanks - I wish our GC’s were on top of things, but honestly if I was not seeking information and advice from other parents and personal research a lot would be slipping through the cracks. That’s the reason I was thinking of mentioning something to my son’s friend. AP Euro would be an elective as AP Government (or regular) is required Senior year. My son will have four years of English (2 AP - English & Lit) , 4 Social Sciences (all AP - Human Geo, World History, US History & Government), and 4 years of Science (Bio, Accelerated Chem, Physics & AP Physics). Additionally he has taken AP Macroeconomics, AP Computer Science and is scheduled for AP Microeconomics his senior year. His math is Accelerated Geometry, Accelerated Algebra 2, Trigonometry, & Math Analysis. Since I first posted his Math Analysis teacher told me only AP statistics is going to be offered next year - no regular. He suggested that because my son is not a math fan he should take our dual credit College Algebra to have a math credit every year even though he will already have 4 after this semester. (Our school does not have year long courses- we have a 4 classes each semester if you are in band or choir you take a split block with another core course all year long.) My son’s serious downfall comes with foreign languages, he took Spanish 1 & 2 and it just did not click with him. Of course his GC did not object to him dropping because if he didn’t take two more years of FL she could put him in 2 more AP’s. (Our HS fell behind the other HS in our district in AP enrollment ratios and that allowed the rival HS to move above us in state rank - even though they are still both in the top 10!). He is scheduled for German 1 & 2 his senior year on advice from a college admission counselor to at least show width instead breadth. We are not under any delusion that our son could get into an Ivy. His stretch/dream school is Georgetown and we have identified fit and safety schools for him. When he narrows down/prioritizes his list through campus visit, we will discuss early action/ early decision options to increase his chances of admittance.
AP statistics is not generally considered a difficult course, since it covers the same material as a semester-long introductory non-calculus statistics course in college.
College algebra would be a waste of time, since it duplicates some of the material in math analysis (precalculus). The main reason such a course is offered by colleges is to remediate students whose high school level math preparation was poor (i.e. failed a math placement test covering precalculus topics). If he wants to take a math course, then the most obvious options are calculus or statistics.
@ucbalumnus - My son’s math analysis teacher said that his AP calc students have told him that our AP Stats class is harder than AP calc. So I’m not inclined to put my son in AP Stat when he doesn’t want to take AP Calc. He may consider regular calculus (my suspicion is this class will not “make” as it will force kids into AP calc), but taking College Algebra keeps him in math all 4 years and he gets easy college credit. So even though it is redundant it does serve a purpose.
11 I was about to post just that! College algebra is the same as pre-calculus. No need to 'repeat'a class. Stats is much more interesting, either in its AP form or its dual enrollment form.
If I were an admissions reader, I would be suspicious of a student repeating a course that he already did well in. Also, it may not be worth any credit at colleges that consider college algebra to be too low of a remedial course.
Statistics is generally useful knowledge to have for someone who is not going into a math-heavy college major or career.
Have him take stats at the college then.
It’d look strange for him to 'repeat’the class.
Our High School has some some seriously messed up Math paths. So because my son was on the accelerated path he takes Acc geo Acc Algebra 2 , Acc Trig (my son got had a loophole to take reg trig as they just changed the math path) then Math Analysis from there you can go into reg Stats or Reg Calculus or Ap in either. In the middle math path you take geo, algebra 1b, algebra 2, college algebra, trig and then go to math analysis.This is also another way the administrations to force kids into classes that make our stats look better, because if you require college algebra before trig, you get a much higher dual enrollment numbers. I have honestly lost a so much respect for our school district and High School as my kids have progressed through the years. It has become clear to me that there is immense pressure to place kids in dual enrollment and AP courses as a way to make the school and district look better. I know many kids who have been placed in AP’s that had no business in those classes. They will often give waivers of prerequisites or grade level requirements if it means more AP’s. So once my son’s friend said I’m not taking math analysis (thus making him ineligible for AP stats or Ap calc) only regular statistics, the GC ceased to care.
Unfortunately I’ve been told regular stats is most likely not to “make”. If my son’s current teacher thinks our particular AP Stats is not only harder than AP calculus but a bad fit for my son, I’m certainly not going to put him in it. There comes a point where you have to make choices about whether you want to make your life miserable by jumping through a hoop or accept that you may give up your dream school and have to accept a fit school. So he may just take AP Euro if regular stats truly does not make.
He may want to try these math placement tests to check his knowledge of high school math, since you do not trust the math curriculum at the high school.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/choosing/placement-exam
http://math.tntech.edu/e-math/placement/index.html
But the community college for dual enrollment classes is likely to have statistics, which would solve your son’s problem.
And make sure his friend takes college algebra if it puts him back onto the guidance counselor 's radar. (a so-so gc statement can be the kiss of death for a great applicant to a top school).