<p>I’d rather not believe God favors one country over any other; She has bigger fish to fry.</p>
<p>parent, respect=down.</p>
<p>:(</p>
<p>I agree with mini. Did anyone here ever read Mark Twain’s essay about war? I can’t remember the name of it, but it has to do with praying to God for increasingly unthinkable things during a time of war.</p>
<p>To run for president of the United States, you have to be two things: an egomaniac and patriotic. An egomaniac because by volunteering for the job you will be putting your family through such scrutiny that a normal person would never choose it. You also need to be patriotic because there is no reason in hell to do it other then you believe that America is a great place but could be even better.</p>
<p>I love Obama…decided I was voting for him when I saw him speak years ago at Boston College, however, I understand that he is probably an egomaniacal politician, as much as any other Washington type (just not as sexy as Bill…)</p>
<p>Well, this thread has taken on a life of its own!
Gotta weigh in on several points I’ve seen pop up in recent posts, but I’m on my laptop at a campsite in the woods of Maryland right now, so I’ll just hit the highlights.</p>
<p>First of all, it matters not whether Clark was speaking for Obama; the point he attempted to make reagarding McCain’s executive experience is easily disputed given that McCain commanded the largest squadron in the Navy. Clark further impugns Obama b/c, in making his comments, he essentially points the finger to Obama’s LACK of ANY Executive experience. So Clark really shot Obama in the foot.</p>
<p>2nd point - Re: Kerry & the Swiftboaters. It was not so much that the Swiftboaters loved Bush as it was that they really disliked Kerry. Kerry’s statements before Congress weere perceived to be lies, and those who served with him did not feel he was deserving of his medals (maybe that’s why it was so easy for his to throw them away in protest). Kerry further “swiftboated himself” by lying about being in Cambodia, etc. and THEN having the nerve to present himself as the quintessential “Military man” by his “John Kerry, reporting for duty” comment at the convention.</p>
<p>Last thing - for whomever posted the Krugman article: Krugman is a complete hack. He even prefaced his article w/ several false statements, so I’d hope that anyone who read it would see the fallacies he is attempting to promote. This is typical of Krugman, so be aware of this fact before you give any credibility to his editorials.</p>
<p>Wrong? Maybe. Time will tell. However, disagreements over politics are permitted. ;)</p>
<p>Mark Twain’s “The War Prayer”:</p>
<p>t was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety’s sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.</p>
<p>Sunday morning came – next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams – visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation</p>
<pre><code>God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!
</code></pre>
<p>Then came the “long” prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory –</p>
<p>An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher’s side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, “Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!”</p>
<p>The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside – which the startled minister did – and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:</p>
<p>“I come from the Throne – bearing a message from Almighty God!” The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import – that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of – except he pause and think.</p>
<p>"God’s servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two – one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this – keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor’s crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.</p>
<p>"You have heard your servant’s prayer – the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it – that part which the pastor – and also you in your hearts – fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: ‘Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!’ That is sufficient. the <em>whole</em> of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory–<em>must</em> follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!</p>
<p>"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them – in spirit – we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
“Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!”</p>
<p>It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. </p>
<p>–Just to clarify, I was mocking the whole “God Bless America” shebang. It’s ludicrous to involve religion in terms of win-lose, good-bad, etc. It can only be used in a time of war to provide faith and hope to both sides.</p>
<p>Thanks, cmonster, for posting Twain’s War Prayer!</p>
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<p>Don’t they always, bz? :)</p>
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<p>The nerve of this man who had been honored with not one, not two, but THREE Purple Hearts! How dare he portray himself as the quintessential military man? So it was OK to smear him, slime him, drag him through the mud, and accuse him of lying and cowardice, so that we could “elect” what? Bush. Boy, that worked out well–thank God we’ve had this brave, coke-snorting, drunk driving, frat-boy, silver spoon, AWOL National Guard at the helm these past four years, rather than Kerry. … The fact that Kerry is STILL being slimed for political reasons makes me sick. God help us–we’d better not ever criticize a Republican soldier, but a Democrat, no matter how decorated, is fair game. Do I have it right?</p>
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<p>It is the words spoken by Senator Kerry upon his return from Vietnam that disqualify him from being considered a “quintessential military man.” It is those words and the corresponding actions that make his later embrace of the military unseemly.</p>
<p>For those interested:</p>
<p>[Health</a> Care 2009 - WSJ.com](<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121538797960931079.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks]Health”>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121538797960931079.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks)</p>
<p>“It is the words spoken by Senator Kerry upon his return from Vietnam that disqualify him from being considered a “quintessential military man.” It is those words and the corresponding actions that make his later embrace of the military unseemly.”</p>
<p>I agree that it was legitimate to question those actions. But that wasn’t the focus of the attacks on him, which instead focused on trying to suggest that his actual service wasn’t honorable. I suspect that this was a tactical decision, because a lot of people now have generally positive opinions of people who opposed the Viet Nam war. So it make more sense to try to paint Kerry as a liar and a coward than to address headon his later opposition to the war.</p>
<p>For those interested: </p>
<p>[Barack</a> in Iraq](<a href=“http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=6001af15-399f-4b11-b7fb-6f52baca6bcc]Barack”>http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=6001af15-399f-4b11-b7fb-6f52baca6bcc)</p>
<p>The article examines Obama’s “plan” for Iraq.</p>
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<p>But it was the source of the anger that allowed his words and record to be picked apart. Most people’s recollections of events decades hence won’t stand up to that type of scrutiny and Senator KErry brought that upon himself.</p>
<p>I have no idea whether or not John Kerry was a war hero, but I have no reason to doubt it; however, what he did as a politician after the war would certainly raise an eye-brow amongst the vets that fought, hero or not, in the war with him.</p>
<p>These may be some of the remarks the “Swift-boat” veterans, amongst others, took exception to. These incendiary remarks before congress may have seemed to impugn their fellow soldiers, if not themselves, personally. </p>
<p>The ads aired during the campaign were almost certainly payback on the part of these vets. I believe the politics of the situation were just the method and means to their revenge, or payback: Chickens coming home to roost, as they say.</p>
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<p>The latter remarks exhibit a very poor grasp of history, at the very least.</p>
<p>.</p>
<p>To be fair, the first part of that quote was Kerry summarizing the testimony of other soldiers about what they had witnessed in Vietnam. He started by saying, referring to others that had testified that “They told the stories at times they had personally raped …” It was never represented that the atrocities were committed by the majority, but the point was that they were the result of American military policy and the men on the ground were the only ones being blamed and prosecuted. That attack was on the policy - which we all know now was corrupt and flawed.</p>
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Because he spoke out about war atrocities? I suppose you also think the young soldier who reported what was going on at Abu Ghraib should be condemned as well?</p>
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I’ve read/viewed Senator Kerry’s words and, as my father served with him, have always been very interested. LONG before he became a presidential candidate I was familiar with Senator Kerry’s testimony and I don’t think it is honest testimony and I think it reflects his real view of the military. It’s fine for him to hold the views that he clearly does, but it’s not fine to then pretend otherwise when politically expedient. I’m not going to get into a lingering argument about this, but my long and deeply-held position is that Senator Kerry has used his military service/experience only for political gain for decades.</p>
<p>No, because he claimed to have personally witnessed “atrocities” which a) never happened and b) he claimed events to have happened in places where he had never been. The Swiftees who served with Kerry have challenged him to rebut just one fact contained in John O’Neill’s book, promising $1,000,000 to Kerry’s favorite charity if any fact relating to time, person or place in O’Neill’s book can be disputed by his military records or by any living person who served with him. But Kerry won’t release his war records or his records pertaining to his purple heart–the one where he shot himself in the butt accidentally. Nor will any of his Vietnam vet supporters (all 6 of them) come forward with a rebutting fact.One would think with all that money and time on his hands, John Kerry would be interested in restoring his legacy and getting $1,000,000 donated to charity by his former adversaries.</p>
<p>I think that Kerry did release his records to a few members of the press. Don’t know if they wrote about anything that they found.</p>