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<p>A group of veterans recently rebutted some of the charges the Swift Boaters made against Kerry, but T. Boone Pickens backpedaled on his promise to pay $1 million to anyone who could disprove a single charge:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/22/us/politics/22kerry.html?_r=1&oref=slogin[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/22/us/politics/22kerry.html?_r=1&oref=slogin</a></p>
<p>Try this out: John Kerry, who served on a Swift boat for only 4 months in Vietnam before getting shipped out for “war injuries” (the real cause was that he idiotically threw a grenade into a rice cache and the shrapnel came flaming back at him, injuring him in the arm and butt. The doctor who treated him put a bandaid on the scratch and that was it.), excuse the digression, John Kerry never saw, heard or experienced any atrocities in Viet Nam other than the time that he took it upon himself to use up ammo and slaughter all of remaining animals in an empty village. </p>
<p>John Kerry actually served the shortest recorded amount of time of any swift boat officer during the Vietnam war. Just this past weekend he declared that John McCain, who REFUSED an early release from captivity in North Vietnam for propaganda purposes, is “unfit for command” as president. Imagine that! And excuse me being annoyed at learning that this idiot passes judgment about fitness for command on the likes of McCain. I am not a big McCain fan, I have lots of issues with him and his politics, but spare us any more of the immature, vapid pronouncements of wimpy John Kerry. And while I’m at it, thank you American people for not letting this charlatan occupy the White House in 2004.</p>
<p>Mapesy, a group of Kerry’s friends are ATTEMPTING to rebut the charges made in O’Neill’s book. They are offering records and affadavits of their own but not any of Kerry’s own records. Don’t worry, Pickens would pay the $1,000,000 if Kerry were able to rebut just ONE fact in the book. Pickens is a man of his word, unlike John Kerry. But as to the so-called “rebuttal”, don’t hold your breath. Kerry will never outlive his bogus “Ghengis Khan” massacre allegations. He is resented for parading around Hanoi with Jane Fonda and friends, for his anti-war pretensions and his equivocations. Kerry is banking on the fact that the New York Times article stating that a FEW friends are “attempting” to restore his reputation will make the issue go away. I suppose for devotees of the Times, this is all the proof they need that Kerry is not a bald-faced liar.</p>
<p>mciver - stating something as fact doesn’t make it so. You don’t know what happened anymore than anyone else here.</p>
<p>As a matter of fact I DO know what I am talking about. That’s why my tone here is so “emotional”. I am not a frequent poster on CC. I’ve only posted on 2 topics so far: Hillary Clinton’s record as a lawyer, and Obama’s rhetorical inconsistency contained in his Father’s Day speech. I usually only lurk, like most people, and I’m not even sure why I do that! On the Obama posts I was given the ad hominem treatment, as you are now doing. Any defense of John Kerry’s multiple outrages against Vietnam veterans is just too much for me, in the wake of this 4th of July. His untrue allegations against his fellow veterans are simply indefensible, haughty and self-serving. I was prompted to post in reply, and I am sort of sorry I am emerging once again on this board.</p>
<p>Just believe me when I say I DO KNOW what I am talking about, it is not second hand. I would not presume to tell you what your experience is, so please refrain from guessing the depths of my own.</p>
<p>Well let’s hear it then. How do you absolutely know what happened to John Kerry in Vietnam? To just say “I know because I know and believe me I KNOW” is fairly meaningless.</p>
<p>mciver, Mr. Pickens offered to give $1 million “to anyone who can disprove even a single charge leveled by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.” I haven’t been able to find any additional conditions to Mr. Pickens’ initial offer, including any provision that Kerry must provide his own military records.</p>
<p>According to the New York Times, a group of veterans actually rebutted several accusations leveled by the Swift Boaters–they didn’t merely attempt to rebut the charges. </p>
<p>Since Mr. Pickens didn’t attach any conditions to his initial offer, and since it’s been reported that the veterans group rebutted the Swift Boat accusations, it appears to me that Mr. Pickens reneged on his promise.</p>
<p>“According to the NYT”</p>
<p>There’s your problem.</p>
<p>^^^OK, how about the AP? The Washington Post? The Boston Globe? The Dallas Morning News? Are they all wrong, too?</p>
<p>Not sure if my last reply was posted, so I’ll make it short:</p>
<p>If any fact has been rebutted, why don’t you enlighten us and tell us what it is?</p>
<p>I’ll be sure to forward this information to T.Boone. He is a very charitable guy and wouldn’t mind giving ANOTHER million away.</p>
<p>How is it any different to quote John O’Neill? No one could call him non-partisan, even if he doesn’t always vote Republican. His anger and hatred over Kerry questioning what happened in Vietnam has tainted any level of objectivity that he may have had. He was recruited to slam Kerry and his own credibility has been challenged as successfully as Kerry’s.</p>
<p>This discussion is about truth. Over 200 men, from rear admirals to LT.JG joined Swift Boat Veterans for TRUTH. These Naval officers, most of whom graduated from our service academies, served HONORABLY in Vietnam, some doing 2 and 3 tours of duty, many earning purple hearts and returning again and again. Democrats and Republicans. Dozens of these Swiftees were with John Kerry every second of his 4 month long tour of duty until he arranged his own transfer and gave up his command to tend to the scratches on his arm and butt and launch his political career. They were and still are OUTRAGED every time the little weasel opens his mouth and starts pontificating on war, service, or fitness for command. </p>
<p>I would love to hear ANY fact that damages their credibility. These brave men put their lives on the line for our country time and again while most people their age were out having fun at love-ins, protests and living carefree lives at college. Their reputations were smeared, besmirched and their careers affected by this arrogant idiot’s testimony before Congress that he saw and heard of war crimes committed by them and their men. Everyone knows that what Kerry said was patently false and merely calculated for political gain and notoriety as an anti-war protester/war veteran. He had seen almost no action and was a lousy commander by ALL accounts. The limp testimony of 6 or 7 guys who didn’t even serve on his boat will be interesting to hear, but I doubt that they will have much to say in his defense.</p>
<p>I cannot imagine why anyone would defend the indefensible. So let’s have at it–what “facts” have “rebutted” O’Neill’s book?</p>
<p>You’re saying that dozens of the Swift boaters served with Kerry every second of every day during his time in Vietnam? Dozens were actually on the boat with him? I think it’s more accurate that none of them were on the boat with him.</p>
<p>Swift boats are 50-foot crafts that operate at very high speed. They take a six man crew but the boats never go out alone. They operate in groups like a flotilla. The boats are so close on the river that the commanders can talk back and forth. After every patrol the commanders regroup and report. There is no way that Kerry saw atrocities that no one else saw. Everything on the river is a group effort. Dozens of commanders served alongside of Kerry every day. It was necessary to work closely and guard each other’s backs, so to speak. There are some very good books out about swift boat operations and I highly recommend them, if you want some titles I will send them to you.</p>
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<p>I’m not defending anybody or anything. I’m simply responding to your comment about Mr. Pickens’ challenge.</p>
<p>The burden of proof is not mine. If you want to prove or disprove facts, then have at it. As far as I’m concerned, reputable news reporting services are far more legitimate than anonymous posters on a message board.</p>
<p>If you introduced a premise or response, then the burden of proof is on you. Did you provide a link to an article with your claims?</p>
<p>The New York Times (as did many other major media outlets) did a horrid job on reporting on the Duke Lacrosse Case. The major media outlets do get it totally wrong from time to time.</p>
<p>^^^Yes, I provided a link.</p>
<p>Do I believe that Kerry,Clark,Murtha were patriots? of course I do!</p>
<p>I also believe they have the right to critisize the war, they earned that right!</p>
<p>Where I part company is when they intentionally distort or impune their fellow soldiers for political expediency!</p>
<p>I just realized that I’m getting very weary of even discussing John Kerry. To spend this amount of time on a cowardly liar who has always been out for his own political gain is just a waste of my time, but I see that cartera, mapesy, etc. would argue endlessly to find some way to excuse the inexcusable. I urge all who are reading this to get a copy of “Unfit for Command” by John O’Neill, and like a jury does, judge for yourself the truth and veracity of the FACTS put into the book by O’Neill and the Swift Boat Veterans. Most Americans have not read the book, but they obviously found O’Neill to be a credible source of information. The term “swift boating” has since then unfortunately been manipulated by the media to describe some sort of “unfair” attack on a candidate. The media’s bias in turning “swift boat” into some sort of negative term, when in fact, “swift boat veteran” is a huge point of pride and service to men who valiantly served our country, says it all.</p>
<p>The NYT has offered us nothing in the way of rebutting the Swiftee’s account other than a vague article saying that Kerry’s friends are in the process of organizing. If I had my wife’s endless fortune you better believe I’d try to use it to restore my lousy military reputation. John Kerry will never be able to undo the damage he has done to our military. He may end up looking like less of a fool someday if he throws enough $ at PR, but the damage to his peers and fellow officers has already been done.</p>
<p>I entered the fray here because I couldn’t stand to see people on this board blather on about his “honorable” service. There was nothing honorable about it. The man is a cad. I’m tired of this discussion, over and out!</p>
<p>It boils down to a “he said” “he said” full of political agendas. I have never seen testimony where Kerry said he witnessed a “swiftboat load” of atrocities. He was more often quoting what others said they saw. He did say he participated in missions where villages were burned - is anyone saying villages were not burned? There has never been a war where atrocities were not committed. What he said has been blown completely out of proportion by the group who obviously thought saying anything was akin to treason. For every claim made by the swiftboaters against him, there is a claim that says the opposite. Who one chooses to believe says more about politics than what really happened.</p>