<p>The NYT didn’t provide links to source documents so it’s hard to render a judgement on the article.</p>
<p>Note that the letter to Pickens was sent by veterans who served with Kerry. Why are conservatives so eager to impugn their patriotism?</p>
<p>I did a little research and from what I gather, Pickens sent Kerry a letter outlining the wager. Pickens also said that conservative blogs got the wager wrong on their blogs. So Kerry could settle the matter by releasing the letter from Pickens with the terms of the wager.</p>
<p>There was no need for Obama to distance himself from Clark’s statement - which did NOT attack McCain’s service (unlike the Swiftboat guys on Kerry) - but merely stated that service or being a POW does not make one qualified to be President - which is totally true.</p>
<p>How many Americans have served and/or were POWs? </p>
<p>Millions. How many of them are/were qualified to be President on that basis alone?</p>
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<p>No - it boils down to “truth” and “lies”.</p>
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<p>No - his testimony was RECORDED and played verbatim for all to hear/see and judge for themselves.</p>
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<p>Link please.</p>
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<p>Only if one does not care about TRUTH. Who one chooses to believe should have something to do w/ fact-based accounts, eye-witness accounts, recorded testimony before the United States Congress, and whether one has a motive to lie or not.</p>
<p>bz–Here are a couple of interesting links.</p>
<p>[FactCheck.org:</a> Swift Boat Veterans Anti-Kerry Ad: “He Betrayed Us” With 1971 Anti-War Testimony](<a href=“http://www.factcheck.org/article244.html]FactCheck.org:”>http://www.factcheck.org/article244.html)</p>
<p>[snopes.com:</a> John Kerry Swift Boats](<a href=“http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp]snopes.com:”>http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp)</p>
<p>Your “math” makes no sense, mciver. 3 Purple Hearts + 1 Silver Star + 1 Bronze Star + 1 Honorable Discharge + 2 tours of duty = 1 “cowardly liar?” Hmmmmm. Uh … OK. If you say so. Mciver–the below link is for you. Though I’m sure it’s just a pack of lies. When you think about it, the U. S. military must be comprised of alot of inept bozos, to shower such a snivelling coward as John Kerry with so many medals and honors! And those fellow vets who spoke up on his behalf? More cowardly liars, do ya think?</p>
<p>Why do Kerry’s critics hate the Constitution, and thus America? That’s what I can’t understand.</p>
<p>I don’t have any idea which side is correct on John Kerry’s service and, or, opportunism. And I can not see that it would make any difference if I could.</p>
<p>Kerry has been put out to pasture. By the voters. </p>
<p>If the current Republicans want to beat Senator Obama, beat HIM…if you can.</p>
<p>John Kerry is currently grazing. His peculiar moment has passed.</p>
<p>This is Obama’s moment. Time will tell.</p>
<p>Hindoo - appreciate the links you provided above, but I don’t think they exonerate Kerry in the least. For argument’s sake, let’s just assume that he was sorely wounded and deserved every purple heart & every medal he received (altho’ I’m sure the people who served with him know for certain whether he was deserving - probably more than “higher ups” who saw nothing but the paperwork crossing their desks. I’m also inclined to believe that Kerry would waste no opportunity to work the system for any medals he could get).</p>
<p>But giving Kerry the benefit of the doubt about his service, the fact remains that he came home & testified before congress about so-called atrocities committed by his fellow service men. What purpose did that serve other than to build himself up? He also threw away his medals - isn’t that sort of like trampling on the flag?</p>
<p>Getting back to Obama & McCain - They may both be “patriotic” (aren’t we all?), but who has DEMONSTRATED his patriotism more? Who has ACTED on his love for his country? </p>
<p>McCain has:
-Attended the United States Naval Academy - and believe me, they work hard & sacrifice greatly there. It’s unlike any other college in America except West Point. It’s a school composed entirely of hard-charging patriots. </p>
<p>-Served as a pilot - why did he climb in the cockpit every day w/ no guarantee of a safe return? Because he loved his country.</p>
<p>-Endured the POW thing - I don’t even have to go into detail here.</p>
<p>-Continued his Naval Service upon returning from Vietnam ultimately giving more than 20 yrs. to the Navy.</p>
<p>-Served his entire life in Public Service. He could’ve chosen any number of careers, but he loves his country & wants to do something about it.</p>
<p>So that’s the highlights of McCain’s continued patriotism.
What has Obama done?</p>
<ul>
<li>Sat in a church for 20 YEARS with a pastor who called on God to D**N America.</li>
</ul>
<p>McCain is the DEFINITIVE Patriot. There aren’t too many men in America who could rival McCain’s service to his country, least of all Obama. That’s why it is a no-win subject for him (as are all the other subjects).</p>
<p>It’s not just “heavy weight” vs. “light-weight”; it’s “heavy weight” vs. “no weight”!</p>
<p>“-Served his entire life in Public Service. He could’ve chosen any number of careers, but he loves his country & wants to do something about it.”</p>
<p>And this is not true of Obama, in your opinion? Getting out the vote, teaching, being a legislator, and being a civil rights lawyer are not public service?</p>
<p>If you want to talk about somebody who was headed for the stars in any field he chose, it was Obama. He walked away from money, fame, power, and prestige.</p>
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<p>Did he? What about those book advances? How much more famous and powerful could he be?</p>
<p>He didn’t know that he was going to be able to write the book, run for president, etc., when he was in his 20’s and turned down the Supreme Court clerkships, big-firm paychecks, etc. that were his for the taking at that point. Obviously he became extremely successful in his public service career, but that was a gigantic risk. If he was after money, power, prestige, etc., then the choice he made at that point was certifiably insane. The only possible explanation is that he actually cared about the public service he planned to do.</p>
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<p>You don’t think he had a different plan? I do and respect it completely. I think he always knew exactly where he was going and what would be in the pot at the end of the rainbow. And that is NOT a criticism.</p>
<p>“-Attended the United States Naval Academy - and believe me, they work hard & sacrifice greatly there. It’s unlike any other college in America except West Point. It’s a school composed entirely of hard-charging patriots”</p>
<p>Except that it also includes some sons of admirals who party harder than they charge, get lousy grades, and have disciplinary problems, but nevertheless get plum assignments on graduation. Amazing how that works.</p>
<p>^Too bad that phenomenon is not restricted to only the military schools. If you think it does not happen at other Top-20 schools I’d suggest reconsidering.</p>
<p>McCain certainly slipped through the USNA by the skin of his teeth. To his credit, he paid his dues later and then some.</p>
<p>“I think he always knew exactly where he was going and what would be in the pot at the end of the rainbow.”</p>
<p>It’s conceivable that he knew where he wanted to go, but why not grab the Supreme Court clerkship along the way? To say the least, it would not have hurt his credentials when he ran for office later on, and it would have helped him with an even softer cushion if Plan A didn’t work out. I think the whole story can’t be explained by personal ambition alone; he had to actually want to do the work he was doing in Chicago.</p>
<p>I’m just speaking as someone who was a fairly undistinguished student at Obama’s law school and still felt immense pressure to clerk at whatever level I could reach. It’s overwhelming. I can’t even fathom how his classmates and professors must have reacted to Obama waving off the whole federal bench the way he did. There isn’t much Obama could have done after law school that was a weirder violation of the culture, unless he went off to live in a yurt in Nepal. </p>
<p>Just to give you an example, someone in a roughly similar position to Obama (the first woman to graduate summa from HLS) decided to be a stay-at-home mom for a while – this was AFTER her Supreme Court clerkship – and that was so shocking and strange that people were still talking about it five years after she graduated. Bailing on the clerkships altogether like Obama is unprecedented, and unrepeated, as far as I know.</p>
<p>McCain may have slipped thru USNA by the skin of his teeth, but he still got thru - which is more than about 20% of each class can say. Surviving and “getting thru” is a phenomenal accomplishment which should not be underestimated.</p>
<p>Then - getting flight school doesn’t necessarily mean “jets”. there is a demanding course of training which follows commissioning & many/most are further weeded out along the way.</p>
<p>Throughout McCain’s career he may have gotten opportunities b/c of his lineage, but he still had to “put his money where his mouth is” and follow thru. He still had to PROVE himself (perhaps MORE than the average joe) over and over again - which he DID.</p>
<p>I wonder if anyone else in the “cafe” has much of an idea just what being a Midshipman at USNA really entails. How many other college students do you know who rise before dawn, prepare for white glove inspections and daily formations (3x day), marching in stifling uniforms, memorizing tons of professional knowledge, be prepared to discuss in-depth several news articles every day, recite the menu of each meal several times daily, mandatory study hours (even on Friday evenings), no liberty, staying on campus nearly every weekend, stripping & waxing their floors, can’t sit on their beds during the day, must participate in a sport, take Physical Readiness Tests several times a year, keep their rooms immaculate, can’t listen to any media (no speakers on the computer), follow tons of rules & regulations, and ready oneself mentally, physically & morally every minute of every day - At the same time - they must meets the challenges of one of the most competetive and demanding Engineering Schools in the World. </p>
<p>I’d be interested to know just how long Obama would last at the Naval Academy.</p>
<p>^ This is true. I’d say the military academies are substantially more difficult than any university.</p>
<p>What makes you think Obama wouldn’t last? He’s smart, physically fit, and ambitious. In fact, I think that if he had gone there, he wouldn’t have been at the bottom of the class.</p>
<p>ok Hunt. sure.</p>