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<p>I don’t believe employers are legally allowed to ask if an applicant plans to get pregnant in the future. They may be able to get around that by asking if “they are in it for the long haul,” though, I’m not sure. Anyone know the answer to that?</p>
<p>Employers cannot ask if you plan to get pregnant in the future - but they can and do ask about long term goals.</p>
<p>Who really knows whether they’re in it for the long haul in that interview? Things change - you love the job, you hate the job, your spouse has to move for their job, a better opportunity presents itself, etc.</p>
<p>@missypie – I agree with the points you have made and I think it would have been OK for the boss to verbally make this case to the OP. It’s the way he went about insisting on getting his own way in the face of the OP saying no three times.</p>
<p>He’s a lawyer so he’s highly verbal so he has no excuse for not using his words.</p>
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<p>Not hideous and unprofessional…just that the people you work for might be giving you a hint. Their hint might be totally off base - I assume it is. Just be aware that they were giving you a message. Yes, telling a woman what to wear or how much makeup to wear is very wrong…but now you know they are thinking about it and probably discussing it behind your back. Will it go further? Who knows. </p>
<p>It sounds like you are proving yourself and that is a good thing. Law firms are motivated by money and if you make the firm enough, frankly you *could *be hideous and it would be okay. (I assume that some of the male partners are hideous.)</p>
<p>I think you should bring it up at the next evaluation. If the partner in charge of you still thinks it’s okay, keep that in the back of your mind when the job market gets better.</p>
<p>OP, I also want to tell you that I now make more money than quite a few of the lawyers who picked my wardrobe and personality apart when I was a young attorney.</p>
<p>Being good will win out, but when you are young, your career is in the hands of people who may not make intelligent decisions or exhibit good judgment. Some can be rehabilitated but with others you just have to move on.</p>
<p>Thanks missypie. It really seems like a much smaller deal today. Obviously I need to start looking for a new job since this isn’t the ideal fit - but there are huge pros to this job as well. </p>
<p>I did have a good laugh (privately) as the partner in question just left for a meeting in a denim blazer ;)</p>
<p>Just read through this thread. Lawstudentny…glad things are calming down. And I wish you luck in eventually finding a place with a more “current” culture. Wow…what they did was real creepy. Now with me, I have a real hard time keeping my mouth shut…so it’s likely I would have been fired. Although, after many years, I’ve learned there is a way to stand firm but still be diplomatic. It comes with experience. They sprung one on you this time…next time I have a feeling you’ll be prepared! </p>
<p>And, it’s not just law firms that discriminate based on looks, gender, weight…etc. I’ve done work for a company where I heard the CEO “prefers” that his female executives were skirts. They do. All the time. It’s crazy but we still have that stuff going on in many workplaces.</p>
<p>You just have to look out for yourself and watch for signs that you may be evaluated unfairly. But you may not. Some of these cavemen have hearts of gold. We have a very influential male partner who says politically incorrect things about women behind closed doors. But he chooses to work almost exclusively with women and he has been a great mentor for them and has advocated for them when it was time to make partner.</p>
<p>I think your boss handled his makeup recommendation in a very ham-fisted manner. I’m wondering if it was his executive secretary who convinced him to do it in such a clumsy way.</p>
<p>However, MissyPie brings up some excellent points. It is never bad advice to take a look around your workplace to note the makeup, dress, jewelry and hair of the other women, particularly those in higher positions than yours. The people who can promote you may be making (conscious or unconscious) judgments about your professionalism based on your appearance. It is all part of your specific work culture, and different cultures exist in different professions, geographic areas, etc., etc.</p>
<p>Where I worked the professional women had a certain “look.” If you didn’t have it, you didn’t look like you fit in. I’m not saying it is good or bad, it just is. I don’t know whether this applies to your situation or not, but maybe your boss was trying to help you out, albeit in a stupid and clumsy manner.</p>
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<p>I have a client who only hires really attractive employees - I’m not talking above average, I’m talking WAY above average. Of course, the funny thing is that he gets his share of airheads, both male and female.</p>
<p>I remember listening to one of his gorgeous young male employees vent about how he had to be a greeter at his boss’s party and that it wasn’t in his job description. I bet any woman in his position would have realized in 5 seconds that she was being used in that capacity because of her looks…but it just never occured to the guy!</p>
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<p>So what happens at or after middle age? If someone gains 50+ lbs, or goes bald? Are they fired, and then does he look to your legal firm or another to defend him in a discrimination legal action brought against him/his company?</p>
<p>Hrdsb4, sorry that happened to you. I was either 25 or 26 when this happened to me. As far as “in it for the long haul”, well I think it is a dumb question to ask because who is going to say that they want the job for 3 months? Who has a crystal ball? Frankly, at the time I was unmarried. If I were married and already had 2 kids, the boss would not know if I wanted a third child, if my DH is going to relocate with his company (I have 2 family members who did relocate in theiir 40s), or if I had a MIL or FIL, or my own parent with Alzheimers that I need to care for, so I might quit working. That’s life. There are no guarantees and just as I am an “employee at will” (is that the phrase Missiepie to describe that I can be let go at any time?), it is a 2 way street, and yes, employees can leave at anytime.</p>
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<p>As you might guess, the guy is extraordinarily difficult to work for, so most people don’t last a very long time. </p>
<p>Here’s a great story about judging people on appearances: A guy I know admits that his firm declined to give a summer law clerk a permanent offer because the summer clerk had a “lazy eye”. He said it just drove everyone crazy to see that eye wandering around. Fast forward several decades - the lazy eye guy founded his own firm, which is about three times the size and much more profitable than the firm that turned him down. (And yes, my now more enlightened friend laughs at how stupid they were.)</p>
<p>^^^^Northeast Mom, I was 27 and newly married. Coincidentally, my husband and I had recently decided we wanted to start a family no sooner than 2 years from that time. I don’t know the actual reason I was not hired, but it turned out to be a good thing. Less than three months later, despite religious compliance with my birth control pill regime, I discovered I was pregnant. </p>
<p>That would have been just too much to have to go into his office and say “well, guess what?” It all worked out for the best, lol.</p>
<p>In my case, I got married about a year after that interview and got pregnant about 2 years after it. I might have worn an engagement ring to that interview, scaring the owner a bit. I really don’t recall if I was engaged yet, or not. </p>
<p>missypie, so the beautiful people don’t stay long? Well, then the boss gets to pay for retraining and time wasted. Good for him. I guess OTOH that he saves because the employees don’t hang around too long for raises. If he fires one that is 50+, or chunky, he may have a tough time explaining the situation if/when he is sued. JMO</p>
<p>OP-
Not that this matters because what the boss did was still wrong an boorish, but what were the photos for? Were they for the firm website, an ad, what? I don’t wear much makeup, but I am aware that it makes a huge difference in photographs, and I look terribly dreary in photos where I have no make-up on. If the boss had handled it better, or the photographer had said something that explained the need for more make-up, wyould you have felt any differently about putting any more of your own on? I am just wondering.</p>
<p>LawStudentNY: I thought about your post as I was doing some other stuff around the house. Then I went back and re-read your original post.</p>
<p>Are you sure the support staff aren’t giving you crap? I hate to say this, but women can be very nasty to each other. If you are the first female attorney in an office where the support staff have “had the men all to themselves” there may be some resentment going on about a young professional female.</p>
<p>This may be way off-base, but it’s possible. Also, if this is the case, don’t try to complain because the men will never see it. Your boss will think you’re crazy. Your only recourse is to be successful.</p>
<p>Just a thought.</p>
<p>Watching an NBC bit on the nightly news about more women earning 100,000/yr+ and that the gender gap is lessening. Described more women than men getting masters, equal women to men in law school, and more women compared to men in med school. They interviewed several women AND NONE OF THEM APPEARED TO HAVE MAKEUP ON. They all were either successful in their professional career or in grad/professional school. They were all nice looking, not frumpy, not obese etc. </p>
<p>It does not take makeup to look good AND be professional. It is all personal choice.</p>
<p>I have appeared on TV. Believe me, I did NOT look like I had makeup on during the airing of the show…but I had PLENTY on. The bright lights of TV really wash out makeup. Despite all the makeup, one never would have known I had any on. This can be the case with good photos as well.</p>
<p>I’m not saying I think the OP should have been harassed into using someone else’s makeup…just saying…you can have that “no makeup look” with plenty of makeup on TV.</p>
<p>The photographer should have asked you to wear alittle brighter makeup (or some if you wear none) as you can look washed out in photos depending on the style of the shots. It was wrong of someone else to use their make-up on you or to put you in a position that you felt awkward. Whenever I schedule corporate photos I’m very specific with males about shaving and when, women about their makeup and both sexes about what colors will look the best near skin given the photographer and the backdrop. I always have a brand new shaver handy if we’re shooting late in the afternoon for guys that get late afternoon beard shadows and generally I’ll pick up some new grooming/makeup supplies to have on hand. Generally I don’t spend the money for a stylist, but it can feel funny tugging on men’s collars, ties, jackets and women’s jewelry, jackets, shirts or touching their hair etc. Things can look very different through a camera than when someone is just standing in front of you. Hopefully you’ve seen the picture and are happy and can put this behind you. Sorry I don’t have a great come-back line for you with your co-workers, but I’m sure it will be long forgotten very soon.</p>