One Year Later in Ferguson; M. Brown is Still Not a Symbol of Injustice

Parent Cafe
21

Great post, Zoos! There is one thing to add, however. Both Brown and Martin would be alive if that had decided to follow basic instructions and behaved like most everyone on this forum (and their children would) and this despite the dubious authority of Zimmerman. None of the two were shot like rabid dogs on the street; they died after a violent altercation with a gunned officer or vigilante. That is where their environment, their upbringing or the lack thereof, and the unusual reliance on violent behavior did them in.

Regardless of the granularity of the details, it remains that none of those deserves to be elevated to martyrdom and become icons of a … just cause. Both of them were lowlife thugs who had been allowed to push the envelope as lawless citizens. The celebration of their cause–if they had one-- and life is an insult to all the law abiding members of our society who have been taught that, at times, they have to listen to instructions that seem unfair and unjust and not rely on violence and defiance against authority.

Ultimately, they paid the price of having been ALLOWED to develop into aggressive and violent human beings and were unable to control themselves before they developed brain cells that can differentiate right and wrong. They paid the price of THEIR actions and were hardly innocent victims. It is still debatable in the public court of opinion if the people had a larger responsibility in the deaths, but it is undeniable that a jury decided they were not guilty.

None of the two deserved to die, but who plays with fire usually ends up burned.

22

It’s not clear to me if on the night in question Trayvon Martin actually did play with fire or if he would have continued on his way to wherever he was going if Zimmerman had stayed in his house with his gun. I’m not really sure I can justify anyone who is not a law enforcement officer going out and patrolling with a weapon. I just don’t think that is ever really appropriate and isn’t, in my view, the same thing as self defense.

I do think Trayvon had issues, but I am bothered by the refusal to acknowledge that he was not perfect, because to me, all lives have value, not only those that are lived perfectly and without blemish. Trayvon was a thug at that point in his life, but his life was valuable and precious just the same.

23

I seriously cannot believe that people can maintain with a straight face that Trayvon Martin or any other human being has an obligation to “obey” a vigilante thug like George Zimmerman, and that if s/he doesn’t, they deserve to be shot. That indeed, simply by not obeying some vigilante thug they were in effect courting their own death.

I would not “obey” some thug like Zimmerman, I would call 911 as swoon as the murderous psycho approached me, and possibly before, if he was obviously stalking me through the night as he was Martin, and I would hope that my kid would do the same.

But of course, we are both white, which means that we have a greater chance that if a cop shows up s/he won’t automatically shoot us down in the street because we are clearly a threat by virtue of our mere existence and temerity in walking at night.

24

“There is one thing to add, however. Both Brown and Martin would be alive if that had decided to follow basic instructions and behaved like most everyone on this forum (and their children would) and this despite the dubious authority of Zimmerman. None of the two were shot like rabid dogs on the street; they died after a violent altercation with a gunned officer or vigilante.”

There is a HUGE difference between how I expect to behave towards a police officer who is questioning me (deferential, compliant, yes-sir-no-sir) and how I expect to behave towards some yahoo who thinks he’s the Boss of Me because he’s walking around with a gun.

“Dubious authority of Zimmerman” – no, ZERO authority of Zimmerman. Just because some men are insecure about their masculinity and feel the need to carry a gun around as a result* doesn’t mean that therefore the rest of us are obligated to be deferential to them or submit to their so-called authority. They can go pound salt.

*Yeah, yeah, I get that in some parts of the country that’s normal behavior. Whatever. I’m talking about the more civilized parts, not the national embarrassments.

25

"Both of them were lowlife thugs who had been allowed to push the envelope as lawless citizens. "

It’s George Zimmerman who pushed the envelope by walking around with a gun, pretending to play police officer.

I seriously cannot believe we are drawing parallels between Michael Brown, who knocked over a c-store and didn’t listen to a police officer giving an appropriate order, and Trayvon Martin, who had the misfortune to run into someone trying to prove his masculinity by waving around a gun.

26

What I would say is that the inclusion of weak examples gives ammunition to those who want to deny the whole narrative.

27

Zoos, I totally agree that Trayvon was a troubled teen with a documented history of bad behavior, but I would be very hesitant to call him a “thug” (not that I’d want my D to have dated him, mind you). Interestingly enough, his killer has a far better documented history of violent behavior than Trayvon ever had, but few who believe Trayvon “got what he deserved” have called George Zimmerman a thug.

Earl Van Dorn, yes Trayvon was suspended three times during his brief high school career, one of which was for possession of trace amounts of pot in a Baggie, and pot paraphernalia. I wonder how many of CC’s collegebound Angels are in possession of pot and the means by which to smoke it, either in their homes or backpacks this very minute? How many upstanding parents of college applicants, whom themselves attended elite colleges/universities, imbibed openly and with impunity (not just pot, but any number of other illegal substances) while college administrators and local law enforcement looked the other way? Does the fact that they were never caught with the evidence of their own, erm…“youthful experimentation”, afford them the right to point to Trayvon’s pot use as “proof” that he was a thug we should all be glad is now dead?

Trayvon was suspended for absenteeism/truancy. Yup, that’s bad. One should never skip school, not even for Senior Skip Day, or by pretending to be sick because you’re ill prepared for an exam. Trayvon had two involved parents who were concerned about his bad decisions, and who were taking action in an attempt to address them. But no CC kid ever made bad, or self-sabotaging life decisions did they? Otherwise, they would be thugs. Right?

The graffiti was definitely bad. Destruction of school property shows a wanton disrespect for authority and community property. People who destroy school (as well as private) property are thugs headed in the wrong direction, and quite probably deserve to be removed from society, preferably shot by a fine upstanding vigilante.

http://college.usatoday.com/2014/05/03/student-riots-take-over-campuses-in-april/

Stolen property. Well there’s simply no way to dress that one up, is there? Breaking into someone’s home and taking what doesn’t belong to you is 100 brands of Wrong. Even if the things stolen don’t amount to much in the way of monetary value, the theft of one’s peace of mind, the sense of having been violated in the aftermath of a break in, is not something to be sugar coated. Most likely, Trayvon did indeed steal those items discovered in his backpack himself, and not “a friend”. White kids are sometimes discovered to have broken into other people’s homes and stolen property as well—often, relatively well-off kids in affluent neighborhoods who steal from their neighbors for the thrill of it, in order to “act out”, to rebel. But they are just “troubled teens” looking for help who just need a firm hand to get them back on the right track. They are not thugs because, you know…thugs are “those other people”. Hmmm…I guess there is a way to dress that one up after all…

Questionable content ( gangsta posturing/profanity/obscene gestures/nudity, proof of drug use and/or under aged drinking.) on a teen’s Twitter/Facebook/SnapChat account which, if made public might make one look not so nice, clean, civic? Good thing that never happens, especially not where good white kids from good neighborhoods are concerned. Otherwise, we would have to routinely warn them to be cautious about what they post on social media. Erm…wait…

I guess my bar for the “thug” designation is a bit higher than some. In my mind, a thug is one who habitually goes around with a loaded weapon, looking for someone to confront, shoot, maime. Someone who uses weapons to commit crimes and to backup intimidating threats. Someone who is quite literally a danger to society at virtually all times. Or someone who walks into a house of worship and spends an hour pretending to study the bible with those trusting folks before killing them, execution style. But folks like that are merely sadly misguided ideologs over whom much argument insues as to whether or not he should have ever had access to a gun.

Yes, Trayvon was every bit as bad…Good thing he’s dead. 8-|

28

I don’t call Zimmerman a thug because in my personal lexicon, a thug is only moderately bad and Zimmerman is at a whole other level. I have been known to call my own son a thug for various reasons. I would call Zimmerman a monster, but all of that just may be my own personal linguistic preference.

And I can tell you that I don’t think Trayvon got “what he deserved” because he didn’t have the gun and he didn’t seek out Zimmerman.

29

I just want to note that I oppose the unjustified shooting of thugs.

30

Poetsheart. excellent post.

with thoughts of Michael Brown:

I do wonder how many white people that move aggressively towards police officers in a threatening manner are shot. And are they shot because an officer believes he/she is in a life and death situation. If, for example, a 280 lb muscle man was coming directly at me I think I would feel threatened and shoot to kill regardless of color of skin. I would be afraid of being overpowered knowing that the person has already chosen to disregard any orders given.

Do white officers shoot 120 lb black women in this situation. White women?

It seems to me that Black people believe they are shot more often than white people in these scenarios.

I doubt this is quantified. I wish it was. It would help me.

Do black people resist arrest or come at officers more often than white people? Is there any cultural behavior that white police officers are unaware of and may read differently than the person is intending?

I don’t know. If you watch any of these cop shows there is certainly no lack of angry, intimidating, huge, argumentative white guys being arrested.

31

Zoos, I know you don’t believe Trayvon M. “Got what he deserved”. That comment was in answer to something EVD said. I’ve “known” you long enough to know you are a nuanced thinker who endeavors to see things from more than one angle. We don’t always agree :smiley: , but I always respect the process that goes into the formation of your perspective. You remain one of my favorite CCers.

Question: what types of behaviors does your “Little Prince” (I believe You’ve called him that at times) exhibit that sometimes makes you call him a thug? Of course, I know you don’t really mean a word of it. :wink:

32

quote exhibit that sometimes makes you call him a thug? Of course, I know you don’t really mean a word of it

[/quote]

Oh I absolutely do believe it, but I think of thuggishness as bad behavior, rather than true criminality. My major beef with Trayvon was what appeared to be a burgeoning propensity for violence, but I still don’t believe he was irredeemable by any measure. My son’s behavior could include being disrespectful, not doing homework, lying, willfully failing to follow through on commitments. From Trayvon, I think the small amounts of weed and truancy at least start as thuggishness and could escalate. That kind of sloppy, unnecessary, problematic behavior is thuggishness to me and I see it as a crossroads. Stomp on that behavior and send the kid on the correct (notice I didn’t say right!) path. Let it continue and it will lead the child to nothing but trouble. But strangely enough, I only think of thugs as male, despite the fact that girls could all do the same things.

I always refer to my son as the PreciousBabyKing and if I have anything to do with it, he will be on the correct path if I have to drag him kicking and screaming to get there.

Here is an article that might be worth a read.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/a-matter-of-black-lives/399386/

33

People can believe what they want to, but all of the evidence supports George Zimmerman’s version of events, namely that Martin had him down on the ground was was pummeling his face with his fists. That’s why his face was all bloody. It only takes a single strike with a fist to kill someone.

George Zimmerman never gave an order. He was the coordinator of the Neighborhood Watch program. It was his job to watch, investigate, and report any suspicious activity, which is what he did. He got out of his car to see where Martin went, and on returning Martin blindsided him and began beating him.

I would have no problem with Martin calling 911.

When violent criminals die while in the process of committing their crimes, I’m glad to see them go.

34

If Zimmerman had stayed at home and minded his business instead of patrolling with a gun, he wouldn’t have encountered anyone who could have pummeled him. We will also never know how they came to be engaged with each other. I do believe Trayvon beat up Zimmerman, but Travyon didn’t break into his house. We will never know if Trayvon sincerely believed he was defending himself, but we do know that Zimmerman was not a professional engaged in his assigned duties.

35

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/09/1214336/-DNA-Report-does-NOT-support-Zimmerman-s-claim-that-Trayvon-Martin-caused-his-injuries

I have no interest in wasting time arguing with Earl but I had to at least post this article

“…DNA results and the Autopsy suggest Trayvon Martin is not the “cause” of Zimmerman’s injuries. So Zimmerman’s alleged self defense claim might not fly with the jury since none of the forensic results suggest Trayvon Martin touched Zimmerman in any way, shape or form…
The Jury will see the DNA report shows that none of Zimmerman’s DNA was found on the cuffs/sleeves of Martin’s hoodie…”
“…George Zimmerman told detectives (time 34:46 in video after the orange squiggle) that he had “blood all over [his] face and eyes.” We know from pictures officer’s took of Zimmerman moments after he killed Trayvon that Zimmerman did not really have blood covering his eyes. That said, if Trayvon had been punching Zimmerman in the nose 25 to 30 times, as Zimmerman claims, then some of Zimmerman’s blood would be all over the cuff/sleeve of Trayvon Martins hoodie…”

36

“People can believe what they want to, but all of the evidence supports George Zimmerman’s version of events, namely that Martin had him down on the ground was was pummeling his face with his fists. That’s why his face was all bloody.”

Yes, that is apparently a fact. But it is also factual that Zimmerman unnecessarily and recklessly instigated the chain of events, which in many, more reasonable states in the U.S. would have resulted in Zimmerman’s conviction. Treyvon Martin was headed home after an absolutely legal stroll in his father’s neighborhood. Mike Brown was nonchalantly making his way back home after robbing and roughing up someone, and probably bragging about it.

37

EarlVanDorn - I’m afraid to ask where you get your information. Can you cite real sources?

38

"George Zimmerman never gave an order. He was the coordinator of the Neighborhood Watch program. It was his job to watch, investigate, and report any suspicious activity, which is what he did. "

Watch, investigate, and report means - you call 9-1-1 if there is suspicious activity, like grown adults do. It doesn’t mean - you brandish a gun. I don’t think you get the sensibilities of the mainstream in this country - which is that carrying a gun is eye-roll-worthy. Almost like waving a Confederate flag . It’s done by people who don’t know any better.

39

Zimmerman was guilty of at least manslaughter (in my mind) since he pulled the cord for what eventually unfolded.

If the narrative is so nuanced that Michael Brown deserves inclusion as a ‘weak example’, I suspect it’ll remain a cult film.

40

To all the people who paint Martin as an innocent victim, can you ask yourself if he could have avoided the altercation altogether? Some here some to object to the “orders” or “instruction” and refuse to acknowledge the authority of a neighborhood watcher. Fine … go ahead, but it remains that there were 99 ways for Martin to answer to the “meeting” in a peaceful. He could have called 9-1-1 or adopt a totally non-belligerent attitude.

Of course, some here are intent to believe that Zimmerman was intent to shoot someone without reason. Again, both Brown and Martin are dead because of the choice THEY make and their adversarial attitude towards authority. That does not make the same people, but none of them are innocent victims, and both of them would be alive had they engaged in a less aggressive behavior.

And, fwiw, the spectacle on display in Ferguson in the past days is yet another fact of that reliance on aggressive behavior by thugs. It’s a total disgrace.