"Some here some to object to the “orders” or “instruction” and refuse to acknowledge the authority of a neighborhood watcher. "
There is zero authority on the part of a neighborhood watcher other than to call 9-1-1. One owes no duty to satisfy such a person’s curiosity.
Isn’t it a general rule that if you’re in fear of serious bodily harm, you’re allowed to up the response to whatever? Zimmerman was guilty of being a self-important, meddling fool but once someone began beating on him, he still had the defense any of us would have.
Which leads to a point, one regarding the nuance of the ‘unarmed black youth’ narrative…
… does a cop, when he puts on the badge, also put down the defense of a fear of bodily harm? That the guy fixing to thump on you, that outweighs your doughy butt by 50#s, most of it young muscle, that’s fixing to scramble your head to the point you’ll need a walker to go to the bathroom… do they really have to gamble on surviving it? Sans the weapon every thug knows they carry? Or do they still retain the bodily harm defense that your suburban mom enjoys?
I don’t have a problem with what happened to Brown. I do have a problem with what happened to Martin. I just cannot lump the two together at all.
Xiggi, exactly what legal "authority"to issue orders does a neighborhood watcher enjoy, especially when he violates the cardinal rules of the National Neighborhood Watch organization, namely those of not confronting a perceived "suspicious character, and not going after them armed with a gun. There’s not a police dept. anywhere that encourages the behavior George Zimmerman exhibited on the night he shot Trayvon Martin. He certainly was discouraged by the dispatcher from following the teen when he called 911. The police were on the way. His job was done. Except that he thought he possessed the authority to harass someone who was merely walking down the street. Did he get the idea that he held some sort of legal authority over persons occupying that thoroughfare by consulting you? If so, that was another of his mistakes.
You say there were 99 more peaceful ways TM could have responded to being followed/confronted by Zimmerman? Okay, perhaps—If one isn’t feeling threatened by the fact that a large man is aggressively following you for no apparent reason. Ever hear of fight or flight? Those are the two options most often exercised by a person who feels threatened. But, I guess it wasn’t possible that Trayvon might have been feeling afraid that night, being a badass thug and all… 8-| Hint: TM wasn’t the only one in that dynamic with a track record for aggressive behavior. One of them was actually arrested and charged with assaulting an officer of the law and obstructing justice. Hint #2: it wasn’t Trayvon Martin. Talk about an “adversarial attitude towards authority…” [-X
So Trayvon should have “respected the authority” of some guy who appeared out of nowhere when he was just minding his own business? Exactly what clues did TM have that this person was someone to be “obeyed”? You seem to think you have the 411 on what “orders” GZ issued TM that night, and why TM should have felt beholden to obey them. Care to share?
Didn’t TM attack him? If Zimmerman yelled at him, then TM should have walked, ran, called police, etc.
. Care to share?<<<
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As Frost said, why say it again with less good words? I have shared that Martin could and should have been able to AVOID the altercation with a more docile behavior. Discussions about what caused the death of Martin raged for months with plenty of divides among people who favored one narrative over the other.
It really does not matter what some prefer to believe. None of the narrative should elevate Martin to a martyr or an innocent victim. He had choices and he made the wrong one because he did not know any better. Again, he was a product of the toxic environment around him.
“So Trayvon should have “respected the authority” of some guy who appeared out of nowhere when he was just minding his own business? Exactly what clues did TM have that this person was someone to be “obeyed”?”
Exactly. I wonder how many people think that a young white person going about his own business should “respect the authority” of some black guy who appears out of nowhere and demands authority. Better yet, make it a young white woman - we expect her to just defer to some black guy out of nowhere who asks what she’s doing there?
People keep saying that George Zimmerman gave Martin “orders.” He did not. Exactly what “order” did Zimmerman supposedly give Martin?
These issues keep popping up, and they demonstrate a clear need for better security and roughly 50 times more security cameras than our society currently has. Gated communities should be required to have a facial recognition system or RFID cards so that when an unauthorized person enters the neighborhood they can be immediately arrested.
More cameras will eliminate disputes about what events actually occurred. Better security will reduce crime and make it impossible for an unauthorized person to enter a neighborhood. That’s how the problem can be solved for the future; eggs from the past can’t be unscrambled.
Gee, it sounds to me like Martin’s real mistake was in failing to beat Zimmerman to death. If he had, all the people defending Zimmerman would presumably be now defending Martin, because Zimmerman was obviously a thug himself.
Right?
But I reiterate that dwelling on the details of this case simply plays into the hands of people who want to downplay the entire issue of racial profiling.
“Gated communities should be required to have a facial recognition system or RFID cards so that when an unauthorized person enters the neighborhood they can be immediately arrested.”
Yes. There oughta be a law. Big government!
Everybody should be tagged so all movements can be tracked 24/7. If you are not doing anything wrong, then you won’t mind that. Willful interference with your federally-assigned tagging device will result in mandatory life without parole. Computer programs will warn you when it is necessary and permitted (obligatory in fact) to shoot someone approaching you in a hostile fashion.
What we need are medi-chips in our brains that can sense our mood and that, if we get too angry, release just enough Valium (or another mood stabilizer…) to keep us from following through with dastardly deeds. Of course, this means the NFL would have to go to two-hand touch (hehe), but the reduction in crime might be worth it.
And I wonder why reasonable people do not end in violent altercation with anyone who happen to stop them, ask a question, or simply want to know why they are questioned. One does not have to be happy with being stopped but one does NOT have to revert the type of behavior of Brown or Martin. What has ever happened to “No sir, I am visiting X in Street Y and we can go check together if you want”
The reality is that, despite the claims to the contrary, the behavior of a group of people is simply the same that has been on display in Ferguson night after night, and that is combative, disrespectful, egregious, AND violent by nature.
Are there no better role models or even martyr to rely on to diminish the permanent racism and discrimination in this country. How about hanging our hats onto people who are no low-life thugs?
Respect for authority (or for anyone else, for that matter) is learned in the home. I think we have the breakdown of the nuclear family unit to blame, at least partly, for some of the attitudes and ideas of those who riot, resist arrest and take part in crime, etc. Or there is a breakdown in terms of teaching respect – I guess that is the point. Not whether the family is intact, but whether respect is taught in the home.
We can also blame poverty, obviously, but then we’d be right back looking at the psychological and sociological causes for poverty – in other words, we’d end up right back at family issues, as that is a factor in poverty too.
What are the trigger-happy white police officers being taught in their homes?
Well, they are the ones in authority, so if they were taught to respect authority… they probably expect respect. That and the unknown (is the person armed?), as well as the knowledge that some people wish to do them harm, are possible reasons they can be jumpy.
Hopefully some of that jumpiness can be trained out of them. The thing is, hindsight is 20/20; they can’t afford to assume the person with whom they are interacting is not going to fly off the handle.
It is a tough situation: people pissed off for being pulled over, and (some) willing to show it… and a cop who demands respect/obedience and is fearful of malfeasance.
Some of these split-second decisions are based on faulty information available at that time.
Now, in the case of Garner – they had him in cuffs, on the ground. At which point they should have used their heads and realized that any real struggle from him was over. Stand him up and take him to the station, where you can decide to charge him or drop charges.
The unfortunate part of any uniformed force is that it attracts its share of gun-loving and none too bright characters with psychopathic tendencies. Add it to a culture of omnipotence and you have a fertile ground for them. After all, a shorter career with plush benefits only goes that far.
On the other hand, you have to feel for the people who are confronted on a daily basis with individuals Prezbucky and I described upthreat, namely the victims of their toxic environment and the tangible lack of guidance, family support, role models, and not to forget … often abject and institutionalized poverty.
SH might have written about the clash of civilizations, but we have a long ways to end the clashes that afflict the United States. Perhaps this is the time to start yet another Segway in why we still need AA and SES policies in education, and probably better ones.
White or black, it’s likely what police officers learn on the job. Call it jumpiness, call it informed stereotyping, call it a healthy respect for statistics.
Blacks account for 40% of the deaths, yet comprise only around 13% of the population. Bless the color-blind cop, he’ll never make a living at poker.
edited to add: No mention made of Hispanics but those are FBI stats. Dig deeper if you wish.
People who maintain that Martin should just have dialed 911 and expected to be treated by the police as an innocent victim of a stalker have their heads in the sand.
I don’t see how you can apply this description to Trayvon Martin’s upbringing. He had parents involved in his life, a successful older brother who was in college and later graduated.
http://newpittsburghcourieronline.com/2014/12/19/trayvon-martins-brother-graduates-from-college/