I saw this article that I thought some might find interesting.
Here’s a link to a non paywalled source: Only 2 Ivy League schools land grads a six-figure salary 10 years out—and almost half of MBAs are a waste of money, data suggests
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Does not mention the mix of majors at each school.
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And it’s important to note the methodology and the dataset- only kids who received federal financial aid are included in this analysis. So Pell recipients- yes, they’re in the study. Full payers-- or kids who received National Merit scholarship or non-federal merit aid- NOT in the study.
This headline AND the tone of the article are highly misleading.
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You make a good point. But the article still might be helpful for families who have to consider if the Ivy is worth whatever debt is required to attend.
I don’t have a strong opinion, but I’ve suspected that when it comes to “Ivy outcomes”, the wealthy…who have pre-existing connections prior to attendance…skews perceived results.
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Federal financial aid includes direct loans that any student (not just Pell grant recipients) could have taken. However, the likely exclusions would be students from the wealthiest families, for whom pre-existing connections to employment are likely to be the greatest.
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I don’t think it’s as much “pre-existing connections to employment” as it is social capital.
Many high paying jobs are in organizations which no longer allow the nepotism of 'sure we’ll hire your idiot nephew and give him a desk job and pay him $120K to get coffee".
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I don’t think there are many “idiot nephews” getting into Ivies these days.
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LDC kids probably mostly had to meet at least plausibly “average excellent” criteria, even if they need not be outstanding beyond that to the level that an unhooked applicant needs to have a chance of admission. Of course, they also likely had plenty of family support (access to good K-12 schools, etc.) so that they can achieve that without barriers.
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And often people who land high paying jobs early detest them because sometimes the prestigious jobs are the work of two normal schedules - 80 hrs plus (which I’ve had - although my jobs weren’t prestigious vs how others define prestige).
Yet people will still trip over themselves for these schools.
Honestly though I think six figure jobs today, in large organizations, are plentiful. Maybe not dominant. But plentiful.
In my universe - automotive - from an OEM like I work to dealerships - many earn six figures and at dealerships loads earn multiple levels of six figures. Yep selling and repairing cars - especially the past few years.
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I was curious about “pre-existing connections to employment” or in other words, “social connections” and employment. A quick google and I ran across this:
From the article: “Nepotistic hiring is primarily a blue-collar phenomenon and is especially prevalent in manufacturing.”
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That page also says:
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If Ivy League schools truly admit only the best students, provide a world-class education, and offer superior alumni connections, shouldn’t the study accurately reflect the earning potential of their graduates? Or do you believe it’s more about personal connections and background rather than academic achievement?
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I wonder why the authors decided not to include that the national mid point for earnings was $50,806, for cost was $19,535, and for grad rate was 58%.
Princeton: $110k, 8k, 99% across similar measures.
IOW: “ivy grads average more than double the national average in salary at half the cost and with a 99% grad rate”.
That Brown isn’t quite double the national mid point is just an indication that they graduate a higher proportion of people into lower paying professions, by choice.
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The best students getting a world-class education may not necessarily be those who seek the highest pay. Cultivating alumni connections may not necessarily be aligned with getting the best students (legacy and development preferences are an example where there is some conflict).
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It might be, but hopefully they’re not seeking schools like this because they think it’s a guaranteed payday.
Btw, here’s what Princeton says about the debt load of graduates:
- 83 percent of recent seniors graduated debt free. For seniors who borrowed, the average total indebtedness at graduation was $9,600.
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The article is near useless due to the misleading conclusions, including implying that all grads from particular college have similar earnings, and college name is primary driver for those similar earnings. For example, the specific numbers below are for Harvard at 4 years out, which the article notes has the 2nd lowest median at 10 years out. It’s a wide spectrum of earnings, with a notable correlation to major.
Harvard
Computer Science – $255k
Economics – $125k
English – $50k
The article implies that Penn students get a boost in income over other ivies. This isn’t accurate. It’s more Penn had a different major distribution from Harvard 10+ years ago, and likely different distribution of desired career paths among students.
Penn
Computer Science – $245k (CS + IS general)
Economics – $125k
English – $40k
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In some ways I’m not sure how believable the data in the article is - or data school reports is - if you look at Cornell and choose the last two years and no majors it shows starting salaries of $84.5 mean and $82 median.
Are we assuming people haven’t grown well above $100k after 10 years ?
My son didn’t take the offer but he had a chemical company offer that would have been $95k and in low cost areas such as outside of Littke Rock, near Calhoun Georgia, and Quincy Illinois - 3 rotations on 3 years.
And he went to Alabama.
Perhaps the article is really an indictment of certain majors vs colleges ??
Otherwise it doesn’t seem realistic.
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Again, the only grads included got federal aid. Kid gets a great merit award from Alabama? Not included in the population. Etc. Huge flaw in the study.
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College Scorecard uses tax reported earnings. You can trust that the numbers are real, and unlike typical numbers posted on college websites, they aren’t self reported. But it’s important to consider that you are comparing completely different sample groups at different points it time. You are comparing:
Group 1 – Tax reported earnings (all W-2s, including bonuses, and non-employer earnings) for fed database kids (mostly federal aid recipients) who graduated 10+ years ago. This is only a minority of students at Cornell, and may be biased towards lower earners.
Group 2 – Self reported salary for students who graduated in past 2 years who selectively choose to fill out survey. This includes the majority of students, but is likely biased on high side.
You aren’t tracking the same group over time, so inflation increases in earnings are not reflected. You also have a different major and career distribution in the two samples. For example, more recent grads are far more likely to purse CS/tech than grads 10+ years ago.
The 2 groupings also have different filters for who they choose and do not choose to include in the results. For example, how do you count someone who works part-time or works only a portion of full year (Scorecard includes them, most college surveys do not)? How do you count someone who completes a graduate/professional degree after their bachelors?
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