<p>Since the entire point of the hypothetical discussion was that these relatives of yours would be gay, it’s obviously you who would be denying them agency by presuming that they would be celibate for life, contrary to their own nature. Anyone who <em>is</em> gay and <em>does</em> share that particular belief of yours would indeed be brainwashed and consumed with self-loathing. Essentially by definition. (And would be at substantial risk of ending up like someone such as Ted Haggard!) </p>
<p>Honestly, I don’t know if it’s your naivete or your arrogance that astounds me more. </p>
<p>And I do agree with pmk that it would be far better for all concerned that you don’t have gay children, since your “love the sinner, hate the sin” attitude demonstrates supreme ignorance of exactly what it means to be L, G, B, or, for that matter, T. Like pmk, I speak as someone with a gay son myself, who finds many of your comments to be grotesquely offensive, and can imagine few things more horrifying than any LGBT child having to grow up in a household ruled by someone with those beliefs and attitudes. Believe me, my son has his share of gay friends with parents like that, and the results can be tragic. </p>
<p>I agree that there’s no point continuing the conversation, though. Perhaps in 20 years you’ll be not only considerably older but wiser as well.</p>
<p>No I’m not – I’m simply stating what they believe. What they believe is entirely their own choice, and they have made it. </p>
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<p>And what definition would that be? In my faith, gay people are called to a life of celibacy. It’s that simple. Actually, they could theoretically get married to someone of the opposite gender, although I imagine many would not take that course of action. You are still viewing this from a completely different framework. You’re going to need to shed it to understand why it is not self-loathing. That’s like saying every priest ever is self-loathing because he naturally wants sex (and given that the belief is that vocation is largely not a choice – although you choose to follow it – is present, it is actually in many ways comparable to the gay scenario).</p>
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<p>You’re right. I’ll have the same beliefs but inevitably be much wiser. Much like my parents. I’ll let you know in 20 years.</p>
<p>When my children’s significant others come to visit, she/he stays in the guest room. That’s just my comfort level in my own house. My D has a serious boyfriend, but they maintain separate apartments.</p>
<p>My sister lived with her boyfriend (now husband) for maybe 1 - 2 years before getting married. For whatever reason, we all went to great lengths to hide it from my then eighty-something grandmother under the fear that she wouldn’t approve and why upset her. Fast forward, she’d figured it all out and her response was a big “shrug, who cares?” Of course, my now ninety-something grandmother has a “gentleman friend” herself who spends the weekends at her house, although she tells us that he is in a separate bedroom because she thinks we’ll think it’s an insult to our grandfather’s memory. We all say, “You go, Nanny!” Ninety-something and a boyfriend? I should be so lucky.</p>
<p>My grandmother married the love of her life when she was 85! They had two and a half great years together. George used to comment openly on his physical attraction to grandma, particularly her “sexy legs.” We kids loved it but my dad was uncomfortable with his 85 year old mom being discussed like that. ;)</p>
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<li><p>My girlfriend is 18 (birthday a couple weeks ago) and a senior in high school. We’ve been dating for nearly a year and a half now. She has come to visit me at college twice. Both times we have made arrangements for her to stay with a friend of mine in another dorm. I can’t say whether or not those living arrangements were followed or not, and I’m sure her parents aren’t fooled for one second, but I think it is a “don’t ask, don’t tell” thing. My mom also smirks whenever I mention her staying with my friend.</p></li>
<li><p>She went on vacation with me and my family over Christmas break to our vacation home. I stayed in my room and she stayed in the detached guest house. We were allowed to be alone in the guest house but obviously our own beds were meant to be slept in. I have several young siblings that are liable to bust into a room at any moment, so I don’t think my parents were too worried. My mom did make a fuss one morning when she woke up early and found my bed cold to the touch, but I had woken up to work out before that.</p></li>
<li><p>I recently went home for her prom a couple weeks ago. Following prom, her dad brought us back to her house. I was allowed to spend the night at their house because they didn’t want me driving home at 3 in the morning, but I stayed in the guest room downstairs and she slept in her room upstairs.</p></li>
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<p>Just thought I would give a couple anecdotes that I have.</p>
<p>Knights, I think you are describing situations and attitudes that are very typical. Basically: “We´re not dumb about what really goes on, but we don’t want to see it or appear to condone it”.</p>
<p>My brother lived with his girlfriend for a few years before ultimately marrying. I remember they also went to great lengths to hide it from the family. Once it came out, it was a pretty big deal within the family. My Dad and stepmother seemed to be the most upset about it, but there was also some fallout from the grandparents. I think back in those days, it was seen in a much more negative light to older generations than it is now. If my daughters decide to live with a significant other at some point, I don’t see either one of them being secretive about it to any of us.</p>
<p>My sister was living with her fiance. My grandmother said, “I understand the economics and why they are doing it, but it must take so much self-control to wait until the wedding!”</p>
<p>Wow. Perspective is everything, isn’t it mafool? I love that your grandmother thought that the most logical conclusion.</p>
<p>When ex-H and I lived in a big student house one couple who lived together in a double bed were “waiting for marriage.” Ex-H’s dad was virulently opposed to this. His opinion? Any guy (it was the guy’s doing in this couple) who makes his woman wait like that deserves to be killed or castrated."</p>
<p>Hm. Imagine a conversation between him and mafool’s grandmother.</p>
<p>mafool, your grandma must have been related to my stepfather. He really thought that despite the fact that I lived with my husband to be for 2.5 years, nothing ever happened until we got married.</p>
<p>Yes, Baelor, and that was true in this case, hard as that might be for you to believe. Sorry. Forgive me for being snarky, but some women do initiate intimacy.</p>
<p>Then there is H’s cousin who wouldn’t let his 80 y.o. widowed mother visit with her 85 y.o. widower boyfriend unless they slept in different rooms. After all, it would set a bad example for their college-age sons to condone an unmarried couple sleeping together.</p>
<p>I just wanted to make sure I understood that it applied to that case and not all – i.e., that the father was speaking about a specific instance.</p>
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<p>Please convey my amusement and support to him.</p>
<p>Baelor, all of this “my framework” speak is a lot of bull.</p>
<p>Well, in my religion, women should be treated as lesser creatures. </p>
<p>I don’t care if it’s offensive or hurts other people. It’s my framework. </p>
<p>See how silly that is?</p>
<p>Your children…, relatives, etc. don’t choose to be your children or relatives. Yet if they are gay, then they must live by your rules/your family’s or face stigma and (as multiple studies have proven) most likely severe depression.</p>
<p>You don’t live in a vacuum. It’s not ok to advocate sexism, racism, or homophobia, whether it’s “within your framework” or not.</p>
I’ll let you know in 20 years.</p>