<p>I like it!</p>
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In Massachusetts, public pensions have <em>nothing</em> to do with how much you’ve paid in. They are based on a function of the average of your highest three years of pay and how many years you have worked.</p>
<p>Teachers in my town used to have a clause in their contract, that three years before they retire they tell the school “I’m retiring in three years” and they got a $5k bump in pay for nothing. This will raise their pensions by $3-4000 per year <em>for life</em>, at a cost to them of $1200. Oh yeah, inflation increases on the pension as well.</p>
<p>Tell me where I can find an annuity like that.</p>
<p>You can work for 40 years at minimum wage, score a job for 3 years at $100K, and you get $75K+/year for life.</p>
<p>Here’s the chart: <a href=“http://media.umassp.edu/massedu/hr/Retirementchart%20(2).pdf[/url]”>http://media.umassp.edu/massedu/hr/Retirementchart%20(2).pdf</a></p>
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I’m not required to put in anything, but I’ve been putting in 10-15% per year for most of my career, with a company match for most of that. There is zero chance I can buy an annuity that will replace 80% of my income when I retire. I would do it in a heartbeat.</p>
<p>Massachusetts currently has an unfunded pension liability of around $20 billion. Apparently 8% isn’t cutting it…</p>
<p>And in my suburb west of Boston, there are plenty of teachers making over $100K. It takes about 25 years and getting to the highest column on the ladder - MS+60 or PHD.</p>
<p>College has become meaningless with the exception for professional degrees/grad school. Liberal Arts majors should be banned.</p>
<p>It’s pedantic to challenge him on having earned a Bachelors degree and act as if his own criticisms are invalid prima facie as a result.</p>
<p>The demagoguery has to stop in order for people to begin to have the real discussion. Harvard has never, and will never, award the B.A. as a degree. They award A.B. and A.S. degrees. The discussion should be limited to content, and not an attempt to discredit the source. For the record, I disagree generally with the concept he promotes.</p>
<p>
I think you mean S.B.</p>
<p>And please explain why an A.B. is somehow different than a B.A. other than because it is in Latin. 
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<p>Yes, thank you. It’s not the point. It’s just that the issue should not be whether or not he earned a B.A. and if the person wants to find fault in a man for making a criticism then they should at least realize discuss the issue as adults instead of trying to discredit the person taking the risk and broaching the issue.</p>
<p>" College has become meaningless with the exception for professional degrees/grad school. Liberal Arts majors should be banned. " - Pol Pot 1975</p>
<p>I did read “Coming Apart”. Ironically he describes himself a Libertarian. Libertarians typically espouse as little government intervention as possible. In his book he describes much of the divide that has risen between the upper middle class and the lower classes as having a correlation with a decline in character and morals within the lower class. The upper middle class and above (overall) retain the values that were shared by a majority of our population rich and poor 50 years ago. As those who retained those values behave in ways which improve their value to society and thus their income, others have descended into behaviors which are destructive and society has ended up supporting many of them. Perhaps to a degree businesses recognize this and a college degree has become as much an indication of ones character as ability. </p>
<p>Another thing that he noted (it may have been in his book “The Bell Curve”) is that college is a primary place for people to find their spouses. As a rule smarter couples have smarter children. As colleges become more selective they are in essence creating a situation in which our country is systematically creating classes based on “intelligence”. The most selective colleges are creating the upper echelons, the less prestigious colleges, the middle, and those who do not attend colleges tend to marry other who are less educated gentrifying the population. Nothing nefarious as Hitler might have done but it may have intriguing implications for the future.</p>
<p>A lot of Murray’s argument sounds similar to the late Christopher Lasch, who wrote about the vital historical importance of petit bourgeois morality as a guardrail against a life spinning out of control in an unforgiving world. Lasch argued that elites don’t suffer immediately from the collapse of societal standards because their money insulates them, at least temporarily, while the poor have nothing to lose anyway. The difference is that Murray argues from the right, and Lasch from the left.</p>
<p>If we banned the BA because it isn’t in demand or economically feasible, people will complain.</p>
<p>If we let people study whatever they want, those who can’t find a job will say that schools didn’t inform them, and they will complain. </p>
<p>End of the day just let people be free and do what they want and expect them to own up to their decisions and choices. </p>
<p>As for Murray’s larger point, one really just has to watch TV to see how times and people have changed. Even without making a moral judgement on anything, people are taking longer and longer to grow up which means a more juvenile society. Birth rates for educated couples is declining, below replacement rates and birth rates for less educated individuals is increasing, well past replacement rates. </p>
<p>So you have an economy and world that is moving towards an information/intelligence based society and a population of people who are not prepared for this surpassing the population that IS prepared. Receipt for disaster.</p>
<p>Did everyone actually read his essay? Murray is not advocating eliminating the B.A.; he is only challenging the constitutionality of the degree as a job requirement if the hiring party cannot demonstrate a tight link between the degree and the actual job requirements.</p>
<p>E.g., back when flight attendants were still “stewardesses”, a lot of airlines made it a job requirement that the women be unmarried, without demonstrating a link between how being single contributed to their being able to do their job.</p>
<p>^gmt, the scary things about Murray is that the general misinterpretation of his writings often demonstrates the very “meaninglessness” of the ubiquitous BA as the benchmark of relevant aptitude ;)</p>
<p>The phrase “relevant aptitude” aptly describes his argument IMHO. More emphasis on vocational training and apprenticeship as bonafide career paths and less emphasis on “college for all despite capability or lack thereof” might go a long way to burst the 800 billion student loan bubble Hey, it might even mean a world where people with varried skills are valued for same, and a world where things WORK 
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<p>Many years ago, back in Canada, my mother was a manager at Canada post when they implemented a policy that she could only hire college grads as letter carriers. She had a very skilled pool of casuals she would have loved to hire because they were fast, personable, industrious, and enjoyed walking the routes. She lamented that comparatively, many of the college grads felt the work was beneath them and were only there in an attempt to advance. It frustrated her to no end that she could not hire some of the people most suited to the work.</p>
<p>I believe this is precisely the kind of case to which Murray is referring.</p>
<p>First, Murray is not writing that any of the steps he has put forth should be put into practice, he is suggesting the ideas for thought. Secondly, he puts these ideas forth as a means to reinvigorate the discussion of equality in this country, as a means to truly discuss “leveling the playing field” and he realizes the ideas are untenable which is why he did not put them in his book. He says that clearly.</p>
<p>Secondly, most teachers in this country cannot earn 100k for 3 years and pull a 75k pension. NYC teachers get a pension of approximately 40k after 25 years of work and a salary at the very top of the scale of 100k. I know because my husband is a teacher retiring soon.</p>
<p>See below:</p>
<p>@notrichenough"You can work for 40 years at minimum wage, score a job for 3 years at $100K, and you get $75K+/year for life."</p>
<p>It is exactly this knee-jerk type reaction to education and to teachers, their level of commitment and their benefits which is driving an adversarial rather than cooperative environment between the public and education. What Murray is saying is that the educational system is not working for everyone because there is not a level playing field, not that the degrees or institutions are not providing the education. It is the culture of the country which is problematic and nothing will change until that does!</p>
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<p>Oh, please. That’s a pedantic distinction without a difference if there ever was one.</p>
<p>The diploma that all bachelors graduates (except some engineering concentrators) get when they graduate from Harvard College says in big, bold letters: “Bachelor of Arts.” Whether any given school tradition is to abbreviate Bachelor of Arts as B.A. or A.B. makes no difference in which degree is actually being awarded.</p>
<p>B.A. = Bachelor of Arts = A.B.</p>
<p>The point of this thread was not whether the B.A. abbreviation for the Bachelor of Arts degree should be “outlawed” but whether the degree itself and the education behind it was still relevant. If you think that Harvard does not and never has awarded the Bachelor of Arts degree, you are simply wrong.</p>
<p>Agree with coureur. Officially my undergrad is an A.B., but if ever asked (which is like never) I’d say a B.A. because people think its an A.A. if I say the former</p>
<p>I haven’t read this book, but I would not pursue any book written by this author. The research in THE BELL CURVE was eventually exposed as manipulated, racist drivel. Stephen J. Gould devoted some of his precious time to this.</p>
<p>
I was talking about state and municipal employees in general, not just teachers.</p>
<p>In my town teachers right out of college get $44,000/year for 183 days of work, with a benefit package you would be hard-pressed to find in private industry. Teacher raises in the first 10 years average 7-8%, and can be quite a bit higher if they continue their education. The average in 2010 was almost $84,000. With two more years of contract increases and ladder steps the average is now probably close to $90K.</p>
<p>So parents, send your budding teachers to my town! It seems we are more than supportive.</p>
<p>^ Just curious, what state is this?</p>
<p>^ Massachusetts.</p>
<p>It seems like the idea behind a college education equaling a job might be something that we have to face is simply not true. There are so many different degree’s that really don’t relate to a job in any way shape or form. It is often on the back of the person with the degree to turn what they have into something that makes money.</p>
<p>A BA in many areas can qualify one for a teaching position. No one will get rich being a teacher, that is true, but it is a living wage. The teaching job will be in the areas of elementary, middle, and high school education at that level. With a MA it is possible to get a job as a teacher at a university. It is possible but definitely not guaranteed.</p>
<p>A BA can make a person a more well rounded individual. It is an education, not job preparation. There is a lot that is learned through college that is not directly related to the subject being studied. You learn to push yourself, when completing assignments. That is a pretty big life skill. You will also learn how to relate to a greater variety of people and see what a lot of different people are like. That is a good way to learn more about life, but not necessarily going to land anyone a job.</p>