Oxford vs. Columbia/Princeton

Hello!

I’ve had the privilege of being admitted to: Oxford (law @ New), Princeton, Columbia, Stanford, Brown, Cornell, Duke, W&M, Wellesley, and waitlisted for Harvard & Yale.

Right now, my end goal is to become a lawyer. However, I’m quite interested in writing and I could see myself becoming an author/screenwriter.

What my mother (who is pushing for Oxford) is suggesting, is to do law at Oxford for three years and then do a law masters/PhD at an Ivy. Is this possible/feasible?

Things that do not factor in on my decision: Expenses, the “vibe” of the uni.

Things that do: International prestige, quality of living (nice, spacious, single dorms), proximity to a large city, how good the education is (one-on-one time w/ professors appreciated), amount of time it takes.

Advice is much appreciated.

Update:
I’ve been looking around and also found this:
http://www.laws.ucl.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/llb-degrees/joint-llb-jd/

I was also accepted into UCL, Durham, and Nottingham. This joint degree program with Columbia sounds amazing but it only takes two students a year and I don’t know if I want to risk everything if I end up not getting in.

My daughter went through a similar thought process two years ago. After visiting a close friend at Cambridge, she chose the US system. She has very broad interests and wasn’t prepared to be placed on a narrow path at this point in her life. If you were totally convince of the direction of your life’s work the English system would get you there faster. However, the US system gives you two years of exploration before declaring an undergraduate major, and two more years during which you can continue to take courses beyond your major (and almost any major will permit you to apply to law school). This encourages greater creativity and a stronger problem solving ability later in life because you are able to draw from a broader base of knowledge. It is also worth noting that most students change their direction while in university (my son had four changes in direction during his first three years as he discovered his real passions). The US system easily accommodates these changes while the UK system requires a restart.

Given your criteria, I would place Stanford and Princeton above the others for prestige (then Columbia and Duke). While I can see the attraction of being in NY, Stanford and Princeton are close enough to San Francisco and New York to make a large city accessible. Stanford will give you the highest quality of life probably followed by Duke (although Durham is not a large city). None of the top US universities will give you the access to professors the Oxford tutorial system provides, although professors are generally available if you make the effort. In the US if you want close professorial relationships you need to attend a top LAC. Wellesley might provide closer professorial interaction, but the daughters of friends who attended found the culture troubling and transferred.

You have wonderful alternatives. Best wishes with your decision-making!

Also, where do you want to practice as a lawyer, and what citizenship(s) do you have?

Congratulations on some wonderful choices.

@Conformist1688 I have three citizenships (without getting into specifics: Middle Eastern, US, & European). I’m not sure where I want to live yet, but I plan on working for big international firms.
Thank you!

@am61517 Thank you for your detailed response! A knowledgeable uncle of mine also says Princeton and Stanford seem like my best choices- though I find Stanford a bit too far, and I like the East Coast better (specifically NYC, lol)

So that means you can work in the US; and if your European citizenship is an EU one, and the UK stays in the EU, you should be able to work in the UK without a visa. Which doesn’t helpfully rule anything out :wink:

What you really need to do is go to law school where you want to work. The down side of that in the US is that the last few years have seen a massive over supply of qualified lawyers, and not enough jobs for them.

I don’t necessarily see a big advantage in doing law at Oxford regardless of where you intend to practice - it isn’t necessary to do law as an undergrad in the UK, you still need to undertake further study, and there are options for those with a law degree, and those who have done some other subject.

The big plus of the US is that you have room to explore other subjects. At Oxford it will be all law, all the time, and no chance to change course, although there may be non-academic opportunities to hone your writing. Most of the direct teaching there will be 1 or 2 to 1; plus a lot of self directed reading and writing essays.

Take into account also that a lot of writers can’t rely on that to pay the bills, and need some kind of day job.

Oxford accommodation isn’t always the most up to date - so that will depend on which college you’ve got a place at.

. Definitely. I know somebody doing that right now. But: the law is the only thing he is interested in, and he is likely to take the academic route.

So here’s the thing about Oxford Law: it is very theoretical and you do a LOT of it. I know and love a number of current or just graduated Oxford law students, and about half of them wish that they had done the subject that they really love as undergrads and then done the law conversion course. As @Conformist1688 points out, after students finish Law they have to go do a practical course and then do what amounts to being a legal version of a medical intern before they qualify.

Getting qualified as a lawyer can happen at any stage, but you get undergrad only once.

Given that you already know that your heart is divided, know this also: you will never have a better chance to explore your interests in a serious way than you will as a US undergrad.

And, I would disgaree with @am61517 about connections with professors. It is true that you don’t regularly spend a couple of hours a week one (or two) on one with your professors the way you would with your tutors, but at Princeton or Columbia (which would be my votes for you) I think you would be at least as likely to get good academic support, and more likely to form a relationship with some of them.

And finally: imo, quality of dorm room should be at the dead bottom of your criteria! I am going to be a bit harsh here, but if you are such a princess that the quality of your room is 2 points higher on your priority scale than the quality of the education, review your list of colleges: on average the quality of dorm rooms in the US is inversely related to the quality of the academics*. If you come off the waitlist at Harvard will you turn down the offer? b/c you don’t know your room assignment until summer, and the odds are that your first year room will be neither spacious nor singles. Ditto at Yale. Yes, there is some very cool housing as you move up through the ranks- for example, senior housing at Stanford (sigh)- but really? is that who you are?

*other posters, please don’t go beating me up with examples of top drawer schools where somebody you know got a great room as a first year or that has just opened a swishy new first year dorm- there are exceptions to everything- and irl the OP cannot be sure of getting into that room/dorm!

@collegemom3717 I know I am a bit divided, but I think I can write without having a degree in literature/writing and law is a much smarter path to take. So I don’t know if the range of courses alone is enough of a reason to pick the US.

Sorry, I didn’t mean for it to look like a numerical list of priorities. I was just stating things as they came to mind, and quality of education felt obvious. I do, obviously, value it, otherwise I wouldn’t have gotten into such great schools.

I’ve visited the dorms at New while there for interviews and they were definitely better than some of the dorms I’ve seen at US colleges. I’m not trying to be difficult, but I’m looking for at least decent air conditioning and single/ensuite room options. I don’t mind looking for my own apartment if I’m allowed. Moving to the UK/US will already be a big change and it would be easier to adjust if I didn’t hate the room I lived in.

They probably showed you the best rooms rather than the worst ones. I don’t think all the rooms at New College are en suite. I don’t know about AC.

Also, you probably won’t get to live in all three years - it looks as if they have enough accommodation for 1st and 2nd year students, but most third years have to find their own accommodation, and if AC is a must for you, that’s going to be hard to find as it doesn’t come as standard in the UK (although they do have a building programme so maybe that will be resolved in time).

I actually agree with you re being able to write without studying it formally - just be sure that law is interesting enough to you to commit to studying on its own.

Exactly :slight_smile:

(I don’t think you will get much a/c at Oxford…but sadly that’s b/c you pretty much never need it…)