Pa. teens charged in fatal beating of immigrant

Parent Cafe
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<p>If you want to talk about gangs then talk about gangs - this was not gang related at all. There is Zero evidence of that.
While barrons may be stating facts they do not appear to apply to this case at all. Unless you can draw the conclusion that since some Mexicans are in gangs and the victim was a Mexican then he must be in a gang. ???</p>

<p>This killing is about 3 white teen who got drunk and decided to pick a fight with a Mexican man who was alone at night. It appears to have been unprovoked.<br>
If they taunted/called names/picked on him BECAUSE he was Mexican then it becomes racial.<br>
I will be interested to hear the defense. </p>

<p>Gangs are another story - we have plenty here on the east coast - they have moved across country.</p>

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and cops :(</p>

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<p>Gangs infest neighborhoods just like any other vermin. And they need to be eradicated. And the teens in this PA case will be dealt with harshly and probably tried as adults. Unlike in SF they won’t get sanctuary.</p>

<p>[newsobserver.com</a> | Seven detained after mall brawl](<a href=“http://www.newsobserver.com/news/crime_safety/story/1156386.html]newsobserver.com”>http://www.newsobserver.com/news/crime_safety/story/1156386.html)</p>

<p>[MS-13</a> Gang - Mara Salvatrucha 13](<a href=“Home - Altered Dimensions Paranormal”>Home - Altered Dimensions Paranormal)</p>

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<p>I want to be very clear on a couple of things, because as anyone knows who’s been on CC for awhile, I do not tolerate my words or thoughts being twisted.</p>

<p>(1) At no point in my reply above did I hint or state that gang activity, including by ‘illegals,’ excuses or invites random violence directed toward any other persons of the same ethnic, racial, national category. (Or against a different, non-anglo, non-caucasian group, or against any immigrants, lawfully or unlawfully residing.)</p>

<p>(2) A tangential topic was introduced: to wit, the effect or supposed non-effect (containment) of gang activity. I was responding to the tangential topic – which was the effect of gang violence on the surrounding non-gang community.</p>

<p>(3) There are plenty of <em>Asian</em> gangs in big cities, padad, but particularly in my area. Plenty of innocent Asians in the surrounding, dense community are affected by that similar level of violence. Whether those young Asians are also here legally or illegally is another question, but again, the side topic being introduced was gang violence, & whether it is or is not a concern to those not in gangs. I assure you it is. </p>

<p>Since my children are very clear on my views about gangs, vs. my views on legal immigration, vs. my views on illegal immigration (3 separate topics, not to be conveniently intertwined for politcal purposes), I can never be accused of contributing to “such acts being committed by some inebriated teenagers.”</p>

<p>Density-wise, my large region may be second only to NY in its diversity of racial, ethnic, national origins in any given 5 square miles. My children and I choose to live here partly for this reason. They are very clear about it; I am very clear about it. Not all parents on CC are apparently very clear about it, despite the fact that I’ve been mentioning it since I joined CC four years ago.</p>

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<p>(The system wouldn’t let me edit).</p>

<p>Edit my post to add: The fourth topic is the supposed ‘sanctuary’ policy adopted by many large and small U.S. cities, & what the consequences of that policy can be. That is also not directly On Topic. (I brought it up). However, it fed into the gang discussion. In the case of Incident #2 I described, there was a triple perfect storm of sanctuary policy as an element of unaddressed illegal immigration + gang affiliation + violence to the surrounding community. Yes, my post was O/T, but since the topic of gang violence had been raised (barrons also did not say that gang violence excuses random retaliation), I wanted to correct some implications by others that ‘it’s really only in selected areas’ & that there’s no danger to the wider community. </p>

<p>Gang violence is dangerous. When it affects innocent others, it’s an outrage. When it’s committed by anyone of any nationality (including Caucasian) who is hear illegally, it’s an add’l level of outrage. When it’s committed by unlawful residents of any background who have been SHIELDED by local gov’ts, it reaches a further level of outrage.</p>

<p>None of that justifies the targeting of anyone of any nationality or race outside of those involved in any violent gang activity.</p>

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<p>epiphany, I was lamenting the fact that non-Caucasian or non-African American citizens in this country are always thought as “outsiders” and hence are never free of harassment of the kind being discussed here. The victim in this case was targeted becasue he was seen with a caucasian female. </p>

<p>A similar experience happened to me this weekend. I was with a female friend, and as we walked from the restaurant back to my car, a car sped by with a bunch of teenagers who yelled out that I should get my **** back to ****. A large paper cup with soda and ice was thrown at us. Ruined an otherwsie perfect evening. And believe me, it is not the first time that I have encountered this type of situation either.</p>

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</p>

<p>Most people killed by those gangs tend to be illegals themselves or persons of the same ethnic heritage (which is why there is generally little outcry from mainstream society).</p>

<p><a href=“3”>quote</a> There are plenty of <em>Asian</em> gangs in big cities, padad, but particularly in my area. Plenty of innocent Asians in the surrounding, dense community are affected by that similar level of violence. Whether those young Asians are also here legally or illegally is another question, but again, the side topic being introduced was gang violence, & whether it is or is not a concern to those not in gangs. I assure you it is.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Gee, and I thought all Asians were “wannabe-Ivy Leaguers” who don’t ever need to worry about discrimination.</p>

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<p>Actually MS13 has long running battles with black gangs in areas of some cities. I think most of the black gangs consist of US citizens.</p>

<p>[Baltimore?s</a> gangs battle for turf and power : Exhibit A Baltimore](<a href=“http://exhibitanewsbaltimore.com/blog/2008/06/30/baltimore-gangs-turf-power/]Baltimore?s”>http://exhibitanewsbaltimore.com/blog/2008/06/30/baltimore-gangs-turf-power/)</p>

<p>MS13 is going international</p>

<p><a href=“Toronto Police Service”>Toronto Police Service;

<p>[‘MS-13</a>’ gang threatens nation’s security - Rita Cosby Specials - MSNBC.com](<a href=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11240718/]'MS-13”>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11240718/)</p>

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<p>My H was an illegal immigrant 30 years ago. and he didn’t shoot anybody.</p>

<p>However, he had a friend was was shoot by an American citizen.</p>

<p>I would like to see barron’s source for his statistics. Its a “fact” m but whose “facts”. What survey was done and by who, and when, and how was the information gathered, etc.</p>

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<p>I’ve never said that k&s, nor never implied that, and you know that very well. It’s just your usual ■■■■■■■■ on YOUR (not my) favorite topic, & fave tactic: which is to attribute to others statements not made by them, then deny what they have never said. Never said all or even most Asian students are wannabe ivy leaguers. Never. Read my recent, quite long post on that, clarifying, restating the same position I’ve held for 4 years on CC.</p>

<p>Nor did I ever say provide distribution statistics for enrolled community college students of any origin, including Asian. You did, however, then use that statistic as some bizarre argument that you apparently believe related to ethnic selection factors as one of about 15 selection factors used in <em>elite</em> (not community college) admissions, according to many CDS on many Elite college websites.</p>

<p>Back to the topic at hand, for those interesting in discussing THIS topic. My previous post also alluded to the fact that it is often the same ethnic group that is affected by gang violence, as that of the gang itself. Sometimes that is a by-product of mistaken identity. Other times it is because the local (non-gang) community is not surprisingly made up the same background (e.g., various so-named ‘Chinatowns’ in various communities). Additionally, people not of that ethnic group are affected, such as visitors passing through that may look like they belong to the group. Or people driving by that the vermin (thank you, barrons) gang members randomly shoot BEFORE LOOKING at who the target is.</p>

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<p>^^ While that is certainly true, Latino gangs still end up fighting each other most over turf, intimidating their own ethnic enclaves, etc.</p>

<p>Besides, since when did mainstream society ever care about the plight of poor, urban blacks, much less black gangsters?</p>

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<p>^^
LOL!! RIGHT!!</p>

<p>Funny how many posters seem to agree that you have had nothing to offer except for conjecture - often conjecture in direct contrast to studies.</p>

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<p>Barrons, if you’re just posting facts, why did you bring it into this topic, where it’s totally irrelevant?</p>

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<p>k&s, you’re way off-base, off-target, and off-facts. It’s researchable by anyone on CC. Various people have agendas & refuse to research the actual postings when ■■■■■■■■ against others. You’re one of them. Many posters also believe that the more SAT points you rack up, the more ‘admissible’ you are, yet admisisons committees at most U.S. U’s are not of that mind-set. An assortment of misinformed opinions does not a truth set make.
Now back to the topic at hand.</p>

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<p>Eloquence, barrons did not contextualize his statement. I’ll let him answer as to his reasons. However, as to my own view, I’ll say that gang membership, while, yes, not relevant to the actual incident, is tangentially relevant to the issue of illegal immigration. Gangs are NOT composed only of illegal immigrants. Not at all. Certainly not most of the black gangs. Certainly many of the Chinese gangs are not recent immigrants; they are in some cases at least one generation removed.</p>

<p>However, when examining an immigration policy, it is important to look at the potential skill set of the new arrivals. Drifters, illiterates, & those most inclined to be on the edge of poverty - let alone those with not great local male role models as relatives, are vulnerable to gang membership as a form of identity & as a means of income (i.e., illegal trading – be it drugs, weapons, stolen property, extortion, etc.). Those from such subpopulations may alternatively just be economically compromised whether or not they decide later to join gangs. A smart immigration policy seeks a balance of highly skilled & lower-skilled, & a reasonably high proportion of educated newcomers to add to a healthy economy & promising future for offspring of those immigrants.</p>

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<p>But where did his “facts” come from? Its just numbers he/she is claiming as facts. I take them with a grain of salt, until I see the source.</p>

<p>I can throw out numbers left and right that look “scarey” but are meaningless.</p>

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<p>“Besides, since when did mainstream society ever care about the plight of poor, urban blacks, much less black gangsters?”</p>

<p>When it starts impacting them. You must have missed the billions of dollars that the US and states have been spent trying to help poor urban blacks over the decades.</p>

<p>Why post it–because it deserves more press than some isolated fight with a death that arose out of a typical confrontation between groups. The guy has two kids by another woman. What was he doing in a park with some 18 yr old girl anyway? Is he supporting those kids or are the taxpayers? And the OP should read illegal immigrant.</p>

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<p>Posting 1:100 statistics or whatever because they are relevant, fine and dandy, but what do they mean and where did those numbers come from? They may be totally accurate but are meaningless unless we have the actual details of the numbers.</p>

<p>Here we go: 1:250!!! That is a fact.</p>

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<p>This incident has nothing to do with gangs. It is a hate crime.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Meh - there have been billions spent on breaks for the middle-class and upper-class as well.</p>

<p>Besides, that $$ went into those programs b/c of pressure from African-American organizations as well as left-leaning groups and not b/c of “middle America” (where the plagues of the inner-city doesn’t really affect them).</p>

<p>And what I was really focusing on was the scant media attention paid to the many blacks who are murdered, gone missing, etc. - whereas if a young girl from white suburbia gets murdered or kidnapped - national press galore (granted, not in every case, but enough where one certainly notices the disparity in treatment).</p>

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</p>

<p>Facts? Facts? LOL!</p>

<p>This is priceless coming from someone who has offered NOTHING but CONJECTURE, and when given FACTS which directly contradict his/her claims - nothing but SILENCE… (well, except repeated rehashes of the same overexpansive, baseless claims).</p>

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<p>Whatever. At least they pay taxes. It was hardly a “hate” crime anymore than a fight between kids from two high schools is a hate crime.</p>

<p>[Deseret</a> News | Illegal immigrant gets 6 1/2 years for causing deadly crash](<a href=“http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600136766,00.html]Deseret”>http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600136766,00.html)</p>