So the child with a parent who doesn’t know his schedule is automatically on a weak schedule? I would encourage you to hold off on that assumption.
@ucbalumnus, our high school curriculum was lengthened because the middle school is inappropriately placing maybe 40% of their students in algebra in 7th grade. In my opinion, maybe 15-20% of them are actually ready for this. But, that’s still a classroom full of kids. It’s true, our community is on average better educated than most but I would think most middle class communities would have some kids who are ready, and if not a classroom full of 7th graders, a classroom full of 8th graders with some 7th graders. I’m quite surprised to see California backpedaling on algebra1 in middle school.
Getting back to the other posts, I’ve spoken with several parents of good students who had no idea what math class their child was in, and no idea whether or not it would lead them to take calculus in high school. A lot of parents just aren’t that involved.
@Much2learn Thanks for your take.
In local schools AP enrollment is advised by the teachers and the GCs. The decision is made by the parents and the students. I have met some local ‘Amy Chui Tiger Moms’ and they make her look like a Kitten Mom. It’s very, very sad.
FWIW: The AP policy is for fair and equal education.
- With regard to the original post, I am definitely not saying that a student has to be an advanced math student to have a chance at Northwestern. I am just suggesting that the student needs to be distinguished in some way to be admitted to such an extraordinary school.
- The reason that I posted this anecdote is because I have seen the same story play out so many times. High expectations parents who have no actual idea whether their students abilities and interests are remotely in line with what they have in their mind. This leads to a lot of tension, frustration, and disappointment that can largely be avoided. We see it here all the time in the threads about a student who applied to unreachable schools and gets shut out, or the student who is struggling to explain to his parents that he can't get into the schools they want him to apply to.
A tangent here:
I am aware that 'Amy Chui Tiger Mom" is kind of a dirty word here, but did both of Ds attend ivies (Harvard?) in the end and the eldest D joined the military after college? Isn’t it also a fact that both of their parents are relatively wealthy (financially capable of being full pay parents) and are also highly educated? Don’t private colleges like students from such families?
At some college, I heard some professor actually advised the students to serve in the military while they are young (if capable, the marine is the best) in order to help with their future careers in politics. The professor (who used to advise Reagan when he was the President) taught a class called “the grand strategy” and it was a class that is very difficult to get in, as I heard.
Back to OP’s question. Our S kind of “complained” that we paid too much attention to what classes he took before college. Not long ago, after he had long graduated from college, he still teased us that we wanted him to be “too ahead” in high school.
This means that the 15-20% who are actually ready for the accelerated math are being done a disservice by the slower paced curriculum that your high school uses to accommodate the inappropriately placed students.
They probably realized that “algebra 1 for all 8th graders” meant that some students were accelerated into algebra 1 before they were ready. Either they got poor grades and had to repeat in 9th grade (needless harm to self-esteem compared to if they were properly placed into algebra 1 in 9th grade), or the algebra 1 course was dumbed down to accommodate them (a disservice to those for whom algebra 1 was the proper placement).
Since the UCs and CSUs and the vast majority of other colleges do not have curricula that require the student to have high school calculus, it is not seen as necessary for California middle and high schools to require college bound students to start algebra 1 before 9th grade, although the option to do so for better-at-math students certainly exists.
@Much2learn: … or the student who falls apart because of the perceived pressure from the parents. Not only did I have similar conversations with parents (always referring to our state flagship UF, not really highly selective out-of-state colleges) but my own husband has no idea what classes our child currently takes yet expects apps to top-50 schools when the time comes.
There was a recent article in the NYT about high schoolers in the Silicon Valley and how to get them to graduation in one piece. So sad … http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/12/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-best-brightest-and-saddest.html?_r=0
“This means that the 15-20% who are actually ready for the accelerated math are being done a disservice by the slower paced curriculum that your high school uses to accommodate the inappropriately placed students.” Yup.
Just wanted to correct my earlier post. Wikipedia says there are about 280,000 students taking the AB exam each year. There are an additional 100,000 students taking the BC exam. That’s a lot of students taking calculus in high school, and I’m sure it’s far more than several decades ago. Why wouldn’t the colleges raise expectations if the students are doing more?
- "In local schools AP enrollment is advised by the teachers and the GCs. The decision is made by the parents and the students."
In our school, a parent and student can override the teacher/GC recommendation too, but they have to go through a process to do it. We have, thankfully, never been through it.
- Another place where you often see misalignment is in high school sports. How many parents thing that because their kid is on a high school sports team, they are headed for college and the pros, when a knowledgeable person could see that this kid is not at that level of play at all. It is all about being informed and objective about what is realistic.
That is true, @Much2Learn, but it is mostly dads who overestimate their athletes. Another disconnect … It is such a fine line to be a good advocate for your student and not to pressure them into oblivion. I know that some of my child’s classmates feels pressured already (after 10th grade) because they are being actively approached as athletes and don’t know if they want to continue their sport in college.
They know that the availability of quality calculus courses in high school is uneven, that math placement in middle school may not be accurate (in either direction), and that not all college graduates will ever need calculus. So requiring high school calculus is not something that most colleges and universities want to do.
Remember that the number of students taking AP calculus exams is only about 12% of those who graduate from high school every year. Since a far greater percentage than that eventually earns a bachelor’s degree, it is not reasonable to say that only students with AP calculus in high school should go on to college.
“…my own husband has no idea what classes our child currently takes yet expects apps to top-50 schools when the time comes.”
lol. That is okay, as long as one parent (in this case you) is involved and hopefully managing/communicating any misalignments between Dad’s expectations and what is reasonable and realistic for each child. It becomes a problem when both parents take that approach.
@mathyone, what state are you in?
And what are 13th and 14th grades? Is this in the US?
"@mathyone, what state are you in?
And what are 13th and 14th grades? Is this in the US?"
Another moment where cc: needed an lol button! So funny.
@purpletitan, we don’t have 13th and 14th grades. ucbalumnus is always saying that (1) any kid who takes algebra1 before 9th grade is ahead, and (2) any kid who takes algebra1 in high school is on track for a college STEM major. Neither of these statements is true in our school system.
mathy, then you are in an exceptional school system. The “standard” track is Alg 1 in 9th grade.
“ucbalumnus is always saying that (1) any kid who takes algebra1 before 9th grade is ahead, and (2) any kid who takes algebra1 in high school is on track for a college STEM major. Neither of these statements is true in our school system.”
That used to be true, but as more and more students are taking calculus in high school, it is becoming less true. My high school’s most advanced math class was pre-calculus (of course that was so long ago that calculus may not have been invented yet). Now, DD took single and multi-variable calculus in high school. Time have changed.
My daughter took Algebra 1 in 8th grade, in a modified IB program so all the students were pretty good in math. She didn’t feel she’d learned enough so chose to retake it as an honors class in a pretty academic private school in California. Best decision ever. She has been very strong in math ever since. We moved again half way through sophomore year to Florida. Her math sequence was:
9th grade: algebra I
10 grade: geometry
11 grade: algebra II
12 grade: pre-calc and AP statistics (her choice to double)
In Florida, all students who take an AP course take the AP exam. It’s required and free. In other states, I think some of the weaker kids just don’t sit for the exam, so the results in Florida may not be as good percentage wise.
My daughter attends a private school and in majoring in engineering. She took Calc I and got an A. About half of the class had already taken Calc I in high school, but my daughter did fine. My nephew, at another school (not Florida) had the same high school sequence but didn’t do as well and repeated calc I, although I think his had more to do with too much beer and not enough studying.
Not having taken calc in high school is not a problem. The speaker at the college tour did say he’d had to tell a couple of guys who hadn’t had algebra II that they couldn’t come to the school (in engineering) without it as the school doesn’t offer any remedial courses, calc I is the lowest level.
Back in the dark ages when I took math, algebra II and trig were combined. You know, slide rules, sine, cosine, etc. We covered a lot more in Alg I, Geom, and Alg II than my kids did. Or maybe I was just smarter!
I took calculus in HS, as did S, but “only” AP Calculus AB, not BC. BC was the highest level his HS offered. S also took both AP physics courses. He had a much stronger math background than D because he had better teachers all along, plus he had a great affinity for math and physics.
It’s always tough when kids and/oro parents have unrealistic expectations that make the kid feel like a failure–there are so many paths to get to wherever the young person wants to go. Many of the young adults we know are NOT taking the straight paths we took back in the day, but are learning in their more meandering paths different lessons and having a variety of experiences we never did at similar ages.
For (1), as you described, your school system accelerates students in middle school math, then decelerates them in high school math because many are inappropriately accelerated and cannot handle being ahead of grade level in math. That is a poorly designed curriculum.
For (2), find a college in the US that is not super-selective reach-for-everyone that requires high school calculus as an admission requirement, or whose recommended course pattern for any major lists a math course more advanced than calculus 1 as an entering frosh.