Florida uses the Orleans-Hanna diagnostics test to place middle-schoolers into Algebra I and the outcome apparently works … most students deemed ready for Algebra I in middle school pass the state-mandated end-of-course exam. If those kids are ahead, good for them. I wish I had been that lucky in my day and time. And most kids on the accelerated math path do just fine and are college-bound. Again, good for them.
But back to the OP, if parents are not aware of the math paths offered by schools and expected by college AOs, the awakening is rough.
The OP is right in that expectations by college admissions committees, HYP or simple state flagships, change. In fact, they change so quickly that you cannot even assume that what was valid for your HS graduate of 2005 is valid for your HS graduate of 2015.
Wow. My kid did Calc BC online as a senior (considered two years ahead). One other student did it with him–there is no BC offered as a class in his high school. We thought he was pretty advanced. But then we are flyover country.
@ucbalumus, the expectation that students take calculus may not be explicitly stated. Most schools are not going to require this because they don’t want to exclude students who didn’t have that opportunity.
But if a quarter to a third of the senior class at your school takes calculus, you aren’t going to get very far with selective colleges, especially STEM programs if you aren’t in that group and you aren’t getting the most challenging program box checked off.
Caltech requires calculus. If that is too reachy/techy, the college of William and Mary also used to say they wanted calculus, even for non-STEM students:
"Are there any required courses to apply to W&M?
There are no required courses to apply to W&M. We recommend that students take four math courses culminating in Calculus, regardless of prospective major. Calculus is preferred over Statistics"
Interestingly, I clearly recalled seeing this statement on their site some years ago, because I was surprised a liberal arts college would expect calculus even from non-STEM students, and it took some digging to find it. I don’t see it currently posted. I suspect this is still an expectation, though unstated, for fear of discouraging students who didn’t have this opportunity. And I suspect the situation is the same at other schools, though they aren’t going to say it directly, they are saying it indirectly with all the talk about taking the most challenging courses available.
I think a major issue is not only are expectations misaligned, parental knowledge of the college universe is limited to a single solar system. I resembled to a certain extent that person in the OP, except I’m a mom and I was very aware of my child’s math level (and other abilities). It was apparent D wasn’t going to be top 10 school material but my knowledge was limited to those schools. So it was up to me to adjust my expectations, not force my child to quickstep through the math sequence, and learn about other colleges and universities outside the usual suspects.
FWIW, I did force my child to retake Algebra I in ninth grade because I saw holes in her knowledge. She also took honors geometry in ninth grade. Tenth grade she took Algebra II,11th was precalc and then in 12 grade she took an AB/BC class that met every day. I tried to talk her down to AB but she insisted. She struggled but the final semester she pulled an A.
My school system had several kids start algebra I in seventh grade. I think it was to be on the advice of the math teacher and guidance counselor. What they found was that parents would force an override. Often the kids were okay through algebra II but cracks started showing in pre calc. Real struggles became clear in calc and in taking the ACT/SAT and Math II subject tests as well as the AP exams.
I don’t think it’s fair to use CalTech as an example. Many of those 250 freshmen are USAMO or at least AIME participants. That’s just a whole new level of math ability even though in theory the contests are at the precalc level (with number theory thrown in).
As with many here, at my D’s high school, the normal track is 9 Algebra 1, 10 Geometry, 11 Algebra 2, and 12 Pre-calc.
We recently learned how it works for more advanced kids because of our son who is just finishing 8th. He is on what they consider “fast track” and is taking Algebra 1 now in 8th grade. We had the choice of starting him in high school in Algebra 2 or Algebra 1. After conferring with his teacher and talking it over with my son, we elected to redo Algebra 1. This means, even though he is considered very good at math, he will not have calculus before college. Now maybe this will keep him out of some top school if he elects to be an engineer, but I don’t expect it to have serious ramifications. We’ve estimated about 15 from his middle school class of about 200 decided to do Algebra 2. Our kids feed into a regional high school so I don’t know if percentages are about the same in the other towns, but if they are, this means less than 10% start freshmen year with the potential to have Calculus. Since some of them will drop off track during the course of high school, a fairly small percentage will end up finishing high school with calculus under their belt.
FWIW, back in the stone age, I went to a top 25 university as an engineering major, with no high school calculus - my high school didn’t offer it.
At our public high school there has been lots of movement both into and out of the accelerated math tracks, but the overall trend has been to see more students each year taking BC calc, the highest level currently offered. (Our BC calc instruction does however go beyond what is included on the AP exam to cover most of what passes for calc 3 even at elite schools.)
Frazzled kids also have several classmates who have become engineers, entered elite STEM graduate programs, or entered medical school without having taken high school calc or AP science classes, but they chose their colleges and college schedules with care.
My concerns would be -
Checking that "most rigorous" box. This affects not only the math sequence, but the levels of chemistry and physics that a student takes in high school.
Keeping up with college work, if peers enter with far more preparation. Students lacking preparation would need to be realistic about spending more time on preparation for class (and going with a lighter schedule), finding tutors, or spreading out intro classes over a couple of years or summers.
Since UIUC and northwestern are mentioned this kid may be from Illinois. There are several top public HS in Illinois where it’s easier to get into NW then it would be from elsewhere. My kids HS is sending 29 (out of 450 there.). These are not our top top students… They are attending Ivy’s. NW like some others elite schools favors local kids ( UPenn is on the record for doing so ). You still have to have some rigor and decent scores. But nothing like you’d need from elsewhere. As for UIUC it depends on the major. We often send kids with 25’s on the ACT and no honors classes into ACES. And our school certainly makes sure a kid is on track with all classes needed including math to get in to UIUC.
As for the OP’s conversation. My husband would have given the same answers. And my kids are at top 10 and top 30 schools respectively. As a college rep said at a meeting we attended "there are two types of parents. one is very involved with every aspect of the child’s lives and collects lots of information and spends a lot of time worrying about it…And then there are the dads. " of course this is an unfair stereotype. But just because one parent is in the dark it doesn’t mean the other is.
The division of algebra and geometry in middle school and HS makes it hard for students to learn math.
Our math curriculum is bad. Students should have some algebra and some geometry in middle school. The school should not force students to swallow the entire alegebra 1 book in 7th grade or 8th grade and the entire geometry book in 8th grade or 9th grade. Many students don’t have the ability to learn about quadratic equations yet but they do have the ability to learn about other topics in algebra. Similarly many students don’t have the ability to learn about circle and power of a point but they are ready to learn about similar triangles. Math contents should match student ages.
Learning algrea in one year then coming back to learn algebra two years later is also difficult. It’s better for students to learn algebra every year. We should teach math like teaching foreign languages.
LOL, in our case it seemed to be the fathers who kept tabs on the levels of math their kids were taking. It was frazzled H who first learned from co-workers of the strategies put into place as early as middle school by ambitious parents, or parents of students who were out-and-out bored by the standard progression or even (in a few cases) accelerated math.
Also shared among parents - names of local tutors skilled at cleaning up after a few teachers that most found to be inept.
“But if you are only taking algebra1 in 9th grade in our school district, you are in the bottom 25% of students, and you are unlikely to be going to college at all, much less the state flagship as a STEM major.”
" students who start Algebra 1 in 9th grade are either not college-bound or start at a community college/state college."
I wonder how in the heck my algebra 1 in 9th grade kid managed to get into all nine colleges he applied to - including what is considered the flagship in NY (Bing) and just graduated from a top 20 LAC. Plus, he had no AP classes (just honors.)
a. A student who was (in middle school) placed in an accelerated math sequence completing precalculus in 11th grade or earlier, but chose not to take calculus even though it was offered in his/her high school (or conveniently scheduled and inexpensively at a nearby college).
b. A student who was (in middle school) placed in a normal math sequence completing precalculus in 12th grade.
It is weird that the common sequence is Algebra 1 - Geometry - Algebra 2.
It would make more sense, imo, to either do Geometry first or last (first is better since Algebra 2 does prepare for Calculus).
My younger kid’s MS Math teacher (same one for 7& 8) taught them Algebra 1 in 7th and Geometry in 8th, but spent the last quarter of 8th reviewing Algebra concepts to get them ready for Algebra 2.
Arguably, the way math is taught in the States is backwards as well. In most of Europe (and I heard Asia as well), analysis is taught alongside or before calculus. In the States, real analysis generally isn’t touched upon until you’re pretty far along in college (in the majors that require it). This reduces calculus to memorization of a bunch of formulas for many students. For some students, that is the “easier” path, but for others, that is actually a harder way to learn calculus.
It may not even make sense in terms of preparation for the real world either, where strong logical thinking is more applicable in many spheres than the “toolbox” of calculus.
@emilybee, I agree with your sentiment. Back when I was in HS, I actually didn’t take an algebra class until 10th grade (though had read an algebra book before then) but finished HS with our equivalent of BC Calc. Geometry & Trig certainly can be taken alongside the Algebra sequence.
My friends and I discuss this all the time. We run across unrealistic parents frequently. Many believe that because their child falls into the 25%- 75% for GPA and or test scores that it is guaranteed they will be accepted into that school. They also have this misconception about Honors programs. I think if anything, I fall on the opposite end of the spectrum. Even though my son has a high GPA , a long list of extracurriculars, all honors and AP classes, I spend my time trying to keep his feet planted firmly on the ground so that there is minimal surprise or disappointment when we receive our college notifications . Our motto at our house is " We may be smart, but we’re not full ride smart."
@carolinamom2boys, whether they’re full-ride smart depends on the school. A full-ride to Alabama St. is just a tad easier to get than a full-ride to Duke.
I realize that each school has specific criteria for " full ride" scholarships. That being said , I also know that these opportunities are limited at most schools. That’s just what we say in our house to keep our expectations in check and is no way a reflection on anyone else’s opportunities .
